DQ'd today

[MarkCO]

If three people have already slipped on the grass this morning and had muzzle control issues, whether moving slow or fast, and short of moving around with a blow dryer to dry everything off there is no cure for this, YOU are saying that as part of the WSB saying that "the grass is slippery, watch your footing and control your muzzle" is somehow giving a competitive advantage to someone, and this is more important than the safety issue as presented?

Your job, under the conditions you describe is to call the RangeMaster and let him or her do their job. If that means suspending running competitors until they arrive, yes, then you do that. You can do the right thing for safety, and match integrity if you follow the rules.

[ktm300]

If three people have already slipped on the grass this morning and had muzzle control issues, whether moving slow or fast, and short of moving around with a blow dryer to dry everything off there is no cure for this, YOU are saying that as part of the WSB saying that "the grass is slippery, watch your footing and control your muzzle" is somehow giving a competitive advantage to someone, and this is more important than the safety issue as presented?

Your job, under the conditions you describe is to call the RangeMaster and let him or her do their job. If that means suspending running competitors until they arrive, yes, then you do that. You can do the right thing for safety, and match integrity if you follow the rules.

+1

Always let the RM make the choice. That is what they get paid the big bucks (;-)) for. The match is much more consistent if all stage CRO's let the RM make the judgment calls.

It rained about 3/4 of the way through GA State. Our stage got slick. Two people just about fell at the same spot.

If I tell the next squad am I giving them an advantage? Yes

Should the shooters pay attention to changing conditions? Yes

[AICS308]

So I got DQ'd today from crossing the 180 doing a reload. It's the first time I've ever been DQ'd and it happened to be a bigger match that I paid $75 to run. Happened on like the 3rd stage so I missed out on about 6 or 7 more stages. It's a good way to save ammo.......

But the psychological aspect of it is what is costing me. I'm really down about it and wondering if I should just give the whole sport up. I had a really suck ass match last month and I went back and practiced everyday and now this. My shooting did seem improved until the DQ. Maybe a break would do some good.....

I think most of us have been there. I was a few months back. Not having fun at the matches, gun problems, dumb mistakes all contribute to self doubt.

How did I fix it? I pulled out a gun I hadn't shot in a long time. Bought some factory ammo (didn't even want to reload). Then told myself this match it doesn't matter where I finish, how many points I shoot, or how bad I look. I will be safe and above all HAVE FUN!

It was the best match I shot in a very long time. Take the pressure off and have fun again.

[Tyro Shooter]

the subject of what, why and how, how not to and "It happens to every body" has now been beaten to death,

now lets look at getting back on the horse.

After a match DQ I've seen people do some really strange things, from freak out and send the whole squad running for the safety of the berms to quietly mutter and disappear never to have their shadow fall upon the range ever again to the classic of the Broadway level drama of screaming at the match director personal meltdown, but the people i've admired (Took it like a man) took a few moments and just got back to work with their squadmates.

Last time i was is "Super gamer mode" I pushed the 180 limit at a local match , it was my own shooting team mate who DQ me for a 180 1/2 degree reload two stages into the day.

i took all my gear to the truck , had a cold sports drink and ran shooters for the rest of the day.

I found that just being on the range for a few hours running shooters and taping and resetting takes the sting out of the self doubting"What if's" on the drive home,

at the next month shooters meeting the match director gave out the standard warnings while starring intently at me to make sure i did get the message (it was deserved)

the more you hang out with the squad (or match admins) after a dq and volunteer to helping the match it will help settle the doubts about giving up the sport,

I knew of one shooter who after a DQ had a self imposed one match ban, he would show up at the next match and then just to help run shooters all day

he said that at the end of the day he felt his "Penance " was over and he was mentally ready to shoot again.

what ever it takes to keep going, walk off the range head up, acknowledge the deficiency and vow to do better next time.

[hercster]

The length of this thread and the general tone of the responses is a testament to the maturity and quality of shooters in the competitive sports. The tightness of the rules with respect to safety gives us a cushion that makes a trip to the range safer than a night at the bowling alley. I'm proud to be a member of the community in both the countries where I reside and shoot as often as I can.

[Todd7446]

We also warned squads on my stage to be very mindful because we had multiple people with muzzles at about 179.95°.

Did you warn every squad or did you start after you saw the first Close 180?

When I am CRO on a stage I try to see the danger points and add some verbiage to the stage briefing with the RM's approval. If I didn't catch the spot before the first squad it's not fair / legal to warn them. Everybody should get the same stage brief.

All squads were warned AFTER the first close call. Close call, not a DQ. Not trying to be a smart ass, but please explain how it was improper to make mention of a potential safety issue. No one was told where it may occur, or the conditions under which it may occur.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ktm300]

We also warned squads on my stage to be very mindful because we had multiple people with muzzles at about 179.95°.

Did you warn every squad or did you start after you saw the first Close 180?

When I am CRO on a stage I try to see the danger points and add some verbiage to the stage briefing with the RM's approval. If I didn't catch the spot before the first squad it's not fair / legal to warn them. Everybody should get the same stage brief.

All squads were warned AFTER the first close call. Close call, not a DQ. Not trying to be a smart ass, but please explain how it was improper to make mention of a potential safety issue. No one was told where it may occur, or the conditions under which it may occur.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

3.2.2 The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out the written stage briefing verbatim to each squad.

3.2.3 The Range Master may modify a written stage briefing at any time for reasons of clarity, consistency or safety (see Section 2.3).

No worries if the RM does it.

[copperhead471]

If a shooter is content to stay at his current level of skill, it's fairly easy to avoid DQs indefinitely. But if you press the envelope to try to reach the next level, you run a greater risk of going home early.

[Brooke]

Went home sulking. But really I came home because I had 3 kids home alone. 15, 13 and 8.

That's more informative than the DQ. Inadvertent or not, you were DQ'ed for a significant safety issue. Suck it up. ....and don't go home for a lame brained excuse. You were prepared to stay around before you DQ'ed. Why did your priorities change later?

Your reaction is your worst offense, not the inadvertent action the caused the DQ in which no injury occurred. Sorry, but it's a weeny thing.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane. I'm not trying to discount the need for safety in our sport; we're waving guns around. Safety save lives. And when a competitor behaves in an unsafe manner, either deliberately or through negligence, I feel that sending them home is the right call more often than not; it reminds them to train to play the game safely.

DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you.

I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general.

So when the shooter doesn't know or maintain their equipment we should just say, no worries?

Letting your loaded gun hit the ground is not safe. The rule book is pretty darn good when it comes to safety.

Thanks for responding to, and taking into account, my entire post. :/ (sarcasm)

I think I did respond to your whole post. I quoted your whole post didn't I?

The original post was about a guy getting a DQ for dropping his gun in the COF. I did not quote that part but it was there for people to read.

You said

"I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane."

Then go on to say you think they should be a DQ if they were not safe. You can't have it both ways. You drop a gun during the COF and you go home. That is a very good rule. You need to understand how your equipment works and maintain it. What reason could you have for dropping your gun in the COF that should not be a DQ? How is it "utterly insane"?

Then go on to say

"DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you."

And you say

"I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general."

We don't DQ people for stage equipment failure unless the shooter reacts in a non safe way. eg A wall falls down and they turn around with a gun in their hand to tell us about it. We do DQ people if their equipment fails and it causes an DQable offence. I had a guys whole rig fall off during a COF. His gun was in his hand and he stayed safe. We figured out a safe way to get him put back together and he went on in the match.

The shooter is responsible for their equipment and actions. I can't think of another way it could possibly work.

I am not trying to be a PITA, I just think the rule book works very well when it comes to safety. Can you explain what you would change to make it better?

Frankly, getting rid of DQ traps would be nice.

- As mentioned in this thread the start position is required to be bent over/whatever. The shooter didn't ask to start in that position. They didn't walk around the match with an unlocked holster, the match required it. I watched a shooter get DQ'd at a local match because they were required to start with the gun holstered laying on thier back on a "bed." when they turned to get up it caught on the edge, their belt got caught on the wood and long story short, gun on the ground. Was it an unsafe situation? Sure. I'm arguring that the shooter isn't the one who caused it.

- I shot snother match amount a month ago that was a 180 trap. You had to run out of your way NOT to engage a few of the targets while breaking the 180. The targets should have been placed better.

I'm not trying to be contradictory. I agree that the DQ is appropriate when a shooter is being unsafe. I just feel that there are several instances where I've heard of or seen people go home for things that break the rules, but weren't the shooter's fault. Maybe the answer is give the RO the ability to chose to issue the DQ?

Weird start positions aren't DQ traps -- and I say this as someone who was DQ'd from a rifle match that had a weird start position that was right on the 90......

I've never been disqualified from a pistol match, despite having started on numerous tight chairs with arms, beds, and other weird positions. That's largely due to my choices -- not to use a race holster, and to snap my hand to the gun to secure it at the buzzer before getting up from the bed or chair.

I got DQ'd from the rifle match because I didn't properly identify the areas of risk or think about what might happen to the muzzle if I lost my balance slightly. My fault. Did the stage designers and builders help a little -- maybe. Bottom line though, I'm the guy who lost his balance, and pointed his muzzle past the 90....

[MarkCO]

If you can not control your muzzle, don't play the game. There are plenty of shooting sports that have straight line shoooting.

A "weird" or unorthodox start position is not necessarily unsafe, neither are targets that "can be engaged" very close to the 180. When a targets requires that the shooter engages a target in an arc of less than 15 or 20 degrees or be DQ'd, I agree that is poor stage design, and I have made stage designers move targets during set up more than once. However, the competitor is still responsible, entirely, for the control of their firearm and muzzle.

Has my extremely safety conscious personality cost me time on a few stages? Yes it has, but I also understand that the firearm in may hand is a deadly weapon and a safety breach is unacceptable to me, regardless of the rules. I had shot 4 targets on an IDPA pistol stage, and I doubled that 4th target unintentionally. I stopped, unloaded and showed clear. I had to argue with the RO to give me the command to holster. 2 -0s on the target I doubled into, one high in the main -0 zone and one in the upper panel, but it was unintentional. Needless to say, the FTEs on the last 4 targets hurt my score significantly, but I knew I had lost control, and while I hit the target, I was errant so I stopped.

I like the Brian Enos Quote in Nik's signature line, and to me, it is as applicable to safety as it is to getting a good score.

[3djedi]

If you can't control your trigger finger, don't play the game. Go home and dryfire.

[motosapiens]

Your reaction is your worst offense, not the inadvertent action the caused the DQ in which no injury occurred. Sorry, but it's a weeny thing.

meh. IMHO there is nothing wrong with leaving after a DQ, especially if your head isn't in it and you have other important things that could be done.

Certainly never a bad idea to stay and help and learn tho. I just would never try to make someone feel bad for leaving. That's a weeny thing.

[ktm300]

So, you draw the gun, clear your holster, start pushing the gun out at the target and start prepping the trigger while you work on cleaning up your sight picture, prep a little too much and BANG!

Result, solid A or C hit but it was a bit early.

You would send yourself home for that?

[motosapiens]

So, you draw the gun, clear your holster, start pushing the gun out at the target and start prepping the trigger while you work on cleaning up your sight picture, prep a little too much and BANG!

Result, solid A or C hit but it was a bit early.

You would send yourself home for that?

Most of us with light triggers cook one off early while prepping the trigger. I wouldn't send myself home, nor would I send someone else home for it. Might as well start sending people home for mikes.

If someone else wanted to quit the match for that, it's fine with me, but I would list them as Did not finish, not DQ.

Edited September 18, 2014 by motosapiens

[MAC702]

So, you draw the gun, clear your holster, start pushing the gun out at the target and start prepping the trigger while you work on cleaning up your sight picture, prep a little too much and BANG!

Result, solid A or C hit but it was a bit early.

You would send yourself home for that?

While that is somewhat my reaction as well, to be fair, he did not say he sent himself home. He did not DQ himself. He merely shook himself up a bit and decided to stop himself for that stage and take the penalties. His call.

[MarkCO]

So, you draw the gun, clear your holster, start pushing the gun out at the target and start prepping the trigger while you work on cleaning up your sight picture, prep a little too much and BANG!

Result, solid A or C hit but it was a bit early.

You would send yourself home for that?

While that is somewhat my reaction as well, to be fair, he did not say he sent himself home. He did not DQ himself. He merely shook himself up a bit and decided to stop himself for that stage and take the penalties. His call.

I did not send myself home, nor DQ myself. Within the rules, I was fine. Within myself, I was not. I took the hit for my lack of control and moved on. I cleaned the next two stages with overall stage wins in the match as well. My point is, don't rely on the rules to "keep you safe", YOU keep you safe. There is no-one as hard on me as I am and very few people who have the guts to be true friends and tell people when they have screwed up (except maybe remotely on the internet). I am thankful I have some good friends, but they are not always there. I measure integrity as what you do when no-one else will ever know except you and God. No RO, CRO or even DNROI is going to be as hard on me as I will if I make a mistake.

Since then, have I let one go early coming onto a target? Sure, but I don't prep until I am in line on a target.

[Jadeslade]

I'm over it today...ready to get back on the horse and kick some butt. Lol

Yes I was running left toward the edge of the bay and performed a reload. The gun was pointed into the berm so nobody was in danger or anything but it did bust the 180 so automatic visit to Dairy Queen. Live and learn..

I've did this. When you plan during your walk thru, picking each place to reload, figure out what you need to do to avoid 180. Taking a step back with your right foot in your scenario automatically places your body in the right position. It is so common to be up against a wall moving right to left that you must have that in your head. Some people cock their hand. Whatever. As time goes on that DQ fades, replaced by better technique. Thanks for posting. Everybody reads DQ threads.

[kitsapshooter]

The DQ's never fade. They do make you more aware of a weakness to be corrected. But I think you remember them all.

[AICS308]

The DQ's never fade. They do make you more aware of a weakness to be corrected. But I think you remember them all.

Ditto, short, sweet and to the point.

[Bryanbach]

I'd say to watch the rest of the match then go to get a Dairy Queen blizzard. If you get DQ'd then get DQ, that's how I boost my morale back up.

[lawboy]

The biggest test is if you hang around after you are DQ'd and help your squad pick up brass and patch targets or tail between the legs and go home sulking.

Not true. There is no test. I hate when people say this. After a DQ, do what makes sense to you and what you are comfortable with.

[RePete]

The biggest test is if you hang around after you are DQ'd and help your squad pick up brass and patch targets or tail between the legs and go home sulking.

Not true. There is no test. I hate when people say this. After a DQ, do what makes sense to you and what you are comfortable with.

I've found that some leave and some go. Who cares? No one.

[Trent1k1]

I guess it doesn't really matter if people stay or not. It does matter to me (my opinion of them) on how they deal with the DQ. Bunch of screaming and whining is a major turnoff, and in my opinion will help form a lasting impression of them.

[teros135]

I'm with Trent. Leave or stay - do what you need to take care of yourself and get past the zap. We're each different. But we'll mostly remember the "character" that's displayed in the process. It ain't always easy, though.