DQ'd today

[RePete]

Use the DQ as a learning experience. What can you learn from it? Don't hang up the holster. Were you moving right to left and reloading?

^^^ This.

You didn't shoot yourself and you didn't shoot anyone else. No biggie.

There are 2 kinds of people in shooting sports, those who have been DQ'd and those who are going to get DQ'd.

[MarkCO]

There are 2 kinds of people in shooting sports, those who have been DQ'd and those who are going to get DQ'd.

Not true. I know a lot who have shot for years who have never DQd.

[hercster]

There are 2 kinds of people in shooting sports, those who have been DQ'd and those who are going to get DQ'd.

Not true. I know a lot who have shot for years who have never DQd.

Maybe so but the assumption is a healthy one as it keeps complacency and arrogance at bay.

[Jaycwebb]

I have had to DQ someone who never even got to fire a shot. The shooter's gun dropped out of their holster after the buzzer went off on their first stage. It happens. At least the OP got to shoot some of the match. I have DQ'd on the first stage of a shotgun match after I slipped in the mud when I was trying to stand up to clear my gun. If you want to take a break take a break. I have had to cut back on my own shooting and except for the match I run GA State is the first big outdoor match I have shot in over 6 months. All you can do is learn from the DQ and not make the same mistake again.

I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane. I'm not trying to discount the need for safety in our sport; we're waving guns around. Safety save lives. And when a competitor behaves in an unsafe manner, either deliberately or through negligence, I feel that sending them home is the right call more often than not; it reminds them to train to play the game safely.

DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you.

I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general.

[ktm300]

I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane. I'm not trying to discount the need for safety in our sport; we're waving guns around. Safety save lives. And when a competitor behaves in an unsafe manner, either deliberately or through negligence, I feel that sending them home is the right call more often than not; it reminds them to train to play the game safely.

DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you.

I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general.

So when the shooter doesn't know or maintain their equipment we should just say, no worries?

Letting your loaded gun hit the ground is not safe. The rule book is pretty darn good when it comes to safety.

[RePete]

There are 2 kinds of people in shooting sports, those who have been DQ'd and those who are going to get DQ'd.

Not true. I know a lot who have shot for years who have never DQd.

Actually it is true.

I know a guy that hadn't been DQ'd in years and he got DQ'd. I found out through the match results. I later found out that he broke 90, but not from him but another competitor.

[MarkCO]

Next match ask for a show of hands of people who have DQd. In a normal group, less than half. Saying everyone does it eventually trivializes it, not enhances safety at all!

[SilverBolt]

We had a new shooter squad with us on Saturday. He shot his first match with our squad last month. He received several warnings about finger on the trigger and pushing very close to the 180. Well Saturday he DQ'd. Finger on the trigger and broke the 180. About the worst combination of safety infraction one could have. After a good talking to he bagged his gun and stayed on to observe and help tape/reset. I think by staying an watching the other shooters helped him to realize his mistake. Staying and helping reset the rest of the day was a class act move. DQ's happen. Learn from it and move on to the next match.

[Trent1k1]

I wasn't the guy mentioned earlier, but I also DQ'd without firing a shot at a match. It was a Memorial Match for a Navy Seal and the start position was standing, but bent over with your hands in a cooler of ice water holding a mask and fins.

I did NOT put my race holster on half-lock and right at the beep, my leg twitched and the gun tumbled to the ground. Rules are rules, and no bitchin.

I stayed for the match, and actually worked the stats shack and compiled everyone else's scores for that match.

Couple months later, I was ROing a guy with another weird start. After the start, had to take 3 steps backward with a bowling ball in your hand, and drop it into a tube that dropped onto a stomp plate. The shooter did NOT put his holster on half-lock, and took the 3 steps and before he could drop the ball, his gun was laying on the ground pointed at my feet. Needless to say, it was a DQ.

He and I run across each other every now and then, and on weird start stages, I put my holster on half-lock, turn around a smile at him since neither one of us forgets the painful lesson we learned.

Take a break if you want, but you just need to learn from it, practice whatever you did wrong (move left to right, etc.) and get back out there.

[RePete]

I got DQ'd at a Nationals for breaking 90. I was shooting strong hand and overrun the gun.

I sucked it up, I stayed, patched and became the squad bitch.

No big deal. One learns from ones mistakes - or should.

[not4you2know]

Getting DQ'd is a lot like laying down a motorcycle for the first time. You got to get right back on it and go or you'll never be the same.

[Jaycwebb]

I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane. I'm not trying to discount the need for safety in our sport; we're waving guns around. Safety save lives. And when a competitor behaves in an unsafe manner, either deliberately or through negligence, I feel that sending them home is the right call more often than not; it reminds them to train to play the game safely.

DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you.

I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general.

So when the shooter doesn't know or maintain their equipment we should just say, no worries?

Letting your loaded gun hit the ground is not safe. The rule book is pretty darn good when it comes to safety.

Thanks for responding to, and taking into account, my entire post. :/ (sarcasm)

[ktm300]

I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane. I'm not trying to discount the need for safety in our sport; we're waving guns around. Safety save lives. And when a competitor behaves in an unsafe manner, either deliberately or through negligence, I feel that sending them home is the right call more often than not; it reminds them to train to play the game safely.

DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you.

I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general.

So when the shooter doesn't know or maintain their equipment we should just say, no worries?

Letting your loaded gun hit the ground is not safe. The rule book is pretty darn good when it comes to safety.

Thanks for responding to, and taking into account, my entire post. :/ (sarcasm)

I think I did respond to your whole post. I quoted your whole post didn't I?

The original post was about a guy getting a DQ for dropping his gun in the COF. I did not quote that part but it was there for people to read.

You said

"I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane."

Then go on to say you think they should be a DQ if they were not safe. You can't have it both ways. You drop a gun during the COF and you go home. That is a very good rule. You need to understand how your equipment works and maintain it. What reason could you have for dropping your gun in the COF that should not be a DQ? How is it "utterly insane"?

Then go on to say

"DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you."

And you say

"I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general."

We don't DQ people for stage equipment failure unless the shooter reacts in a non safe way. eg A wall falls down and they turn around with a gun in their hand to tell us about it. We do DQ people if their equipment fails and it causes an DQable offence. I had a guys whole rig fall off during a COF. His gun was in his hand and he stayed safe. We figured out a safe way to get him put back together and he went on in the match.

The shooter is responsible for their equipment and actions. I can't think of another way it could possibly work.

I am not trying to be a PITA, I just think the rule book works very well when it comes to safety. Can you explain what you would change to make it better?

[Jaycwebb]

I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane. I'm not trying to discount the need for safety in our sport; we're waving guns around. Safety save lives. And when a competitor behaves in an unsafe manner, either deliberately or through negligence, I feel that sending them home is the right call more often than not; it reminds them to train to play the game safely.

DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you.

I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general.

So when the shooter doesn't know or maintain their equipment we should just say, no worries?

Letting your loaded gun hit the ground is not safe. The rule book is pretty darn good when it comes to safety.

Thanks for responding to, and taking into account, my entire post. :/ (sarcasm)

I think I did respond to your whole post. I quoted your whole post didn't I?

The original post was about a guy getting a DQ for dropping his gun in the COF. I did not quote that part but it was there for people to read.

You said

"I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane."

Then go on to say you think they should be a DQ if they were not safe. You can't have it both ways. You drop a gun during the COF and you go home. That is a very good rule. You need to understand how your equipment works and maintain it. What reason could you have for dropping your gun in the COF that should not be a DQ? How is it "utterly insane"?

Then go on to say

"DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you."

And you say

"I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general."

We don't DQ people for stage equipment failure unless the shooter reacts in a non safe way. eg A wall falls down and they turn around with a gun in their hand to tell us about it. We do DQ people if their equipment fails and it causes an DQable offence. I had a guys whole rig fall off during a COF. His gun was in his hand and he stayed safe. We figured out a safe way to get him put back together and he went on in the match.

The shooter is responsible for their equipment and actions. I can't think of another way it could possibly work.

I am not trying to be a PITA, I just think the rule book works very well when it comes to safety. Can you explain what you would change to make it better?

Frankly, getting rid of DQ traps would be nice.

- As mentioned in this thread the start position is required to be bent over/whatever. The shooter didn't ask to start in that position. They didn't walk around the match with an unlocked holster, the match required it. I watched a shooter get DQ'd at a local match because they were required to start with the gun holstered laying on thier back on a "bed." when they turned to get up it caught on the edge, their belt got caught on the wood and long story short, gun on the ground. Was it an unsafe situation? Sure. I'm arguring that the shooter isn't the one who caused it.

- I shot snother match amount a month ago that was a 180 trap. You had to run out of your way NOT to engage a few of the targets while breaking the 180. The targets should have been placed better.

I'm not trying to be contradictory. I agree that the DQ is appropriate when a shooter is being unsafe. I just feel that there are several instances where I've heard of or seen people go home for things that break the rules, but weren't the shooter's fault. Maybe the answer is give the RO the ability to chose to issue the DQ?

[Todd7446]

I was CRO on a stage at the Indiana Championship this weekend. Late yesterday, the last shooter in a squad on their next to last stage (there were 17 stages) took the start signal, fired four shots and cut it too close going around a barricade (moving right to left while advancing). All of a sudden, my RO running him was looking down the barrel and yelling STOP. Thank goodness the shooter got it stopped safely and nothing happened. Thank goodness especially because this RO's wife and son (who was also a shooter) were at the stage watching him.

Another shooter finished the course, made it through ULSC, and holstered his weapon in a race holster. He moved his hand to flip the lock lever and sure enough, the gun rolled forward and to the ground. Range clear command hadn't been given... The lesson here is to always hold the gun in place while locking it down.

Bottom line: both of these shooters, my RO, and you (OP) went home safe and sound, and that is what matters most. Don't give up. Learn from it, and I'm sure you'll be even more diligent.

[zhunter]

Best thing to do is to carefully access how/why it happened and learn from it.

I've DQ'd twice

1) moving in weak hand direction reloading. It was in my first year of shooting and to be honest it was something I had not considered as a likely 180 violation. Lesson Learned!

2) using a race holster, upon starting a stage you had to drop a prop into a bucket and move backwards a few steps while remaining low. My strong side thigh hit the muzzle of the gun while still holstered, knocked it out, hit the ground and it was a DQ. Bought a kydex style holster the next day and never looked back. Lesson Learned.

Btw, kydex style (Blade Tech) holsters do not slow your draw down. They just don't have the same cool factor

[ktm300]

I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane. I'm not trying to discount the need for safety in our sport; we're waving guns around. Safety save lives. And when a competitor behaves in an unsafe manner, either deliberately or through negligence, I feel that sending them home is the right call more often than not; it reminds them to train to play the game safely.

DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you.

I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general.

So when the shooter doesn't know or maintain their equipment we should just say, no worries?

Letting your loaded gun hit the ground is not safe. The rule book is pretty darn good when it comes to safety.

Thanks for responding to, and taking into account, my entire post. :/ (sarcasm)

I think I did respond to your whole post. I quoted your whole post didn't I?

The original post was about a guy getting a DQ for dropping his gun in the COF. I did not quote that part but it was there for people to read.

You said

"I'm sorry, but this is utterly insane."

Then go on to say you think they should be a DQ if they were not safe. You can't have it both ways. You drop a gun during the COF and you go home. That is a very good rule. You need to understand how your equipment works and maintain it. What reason could you have for dropping your gun in the COF that should not be a DQ? How is it "utterly insane"?

Then go on to say

"DQing someone because of an equipment failure, either their own, or the stage/environment, is dumb. All it does is create a negative experience for everyone around you."

And you say

"I'm not bashing the person I quoted, or a person here specifically, but the rulebook in general."

We don't DQ people for stage equipment failure unless the shooter reacts in a non safe way. eg A wall falls down and they turn around with a gun in their hand to tell us about it. We do DQ people if their equipment fails and it causes an DQable offence. I had a guys whole rig fall off during a COF. His gun was in his hand and he stayed safe. We figured out a safe way to get him put back together and he went on in the match.

The shooter is responsible for their equipment and actions. I can't think of another way it could possibly work.

I am not trying to be a PITA, I just think the rule book works very well when it comes to safety. Can you explain what you would change to make it better?

Frankly, getting rid of DQ traps would be nice.

No argument from me. Now we just try and define them. Ask 100 shooters get 30 or 40 answers.

- As mentioned in this thread the start position is required to be bent over/whatever. The shooter didn't ask to start in that position. They didn't walk around the match with an unlocked holster, the match required it. I watched a shooter get DQ'd at a local match because they were required to start with the gun holstered laying on thier back on a "bed." when they turned to get up it caught on the edge, their belt got caught on the wood and long story short, gun on the ground. Was it an unsafe situation? Sure. I'm arguring that the shooter isn't the one who caused it.

The shooter needs to know their equipment. If they use a race holster they need to know that it needs to be locked in that situation. Nothing requires a shooter to unlock their holster before the buzzer. They made a choice, it was a bad one. If they are using a "regular" holster they need to know to make sure it's tight. That is not, in my opinion a DQ trap.

- I shot snother match amount a month ago that was a 180 trap. You had to run out of your way NOT to engage a few of the targets while breaking the 180. The targets should have been placed better.

We have a rule to cover this. Take a look at 2.1.4 it covers it pretty well.

I'm not trying to be contradictory. I agree that the DQ is appropriate when a shooter is being unsafe. I just feel that there are several instances where I've heard of or seen people go home for things that break the rules, but weren't the shooter's fault. Maybe the answer is give the RO the ability to chose to issue the DQ?

This is a good discussion so don't take this the wrong way please. I don't want a lot of subjectivity when it comes to safety. It needs to be as close to black and white as possible. To many RO's decide to not enforce rules at local matches and when someone shows up at a match with RO's that follow the rules they end up getting that DQ at a $175 match instead of the $20 local. I catch a bit of hell at our locals because I call it the same all the time. If I am 100% sure the shooter broke a safety rule that will give them a DQ, I stop them. Some people won't shoot with my because of that. I am OK with it as I don't want to get shot and I don't want to be there when someone else gets shot.

We play a game with guns. We need to know our equipment, and know the rules. The penalty for not doing either has to be harsh or people won't pay attention.

Edited September 15, 2014 by ktm300

[RussellM]

I had my First DQ at a local match yesterday. I had a weird grip on the gun right from the start and as I seated the mag during my first reload moving around a corner my second finger somehow touched the bottom edge of the trigger, needless to say I had an AD straight through a wall but safely into the middle of the backstop. I stayed and helped run the squad for the rest of the match. When I got home I dryfired reloads for a while and tried to duplicate it, I could only make myself do it intentionally and not accidentally like in the match.

Edited September 15, 2014 by RussellM

[CHA-LEE]

This is a Big Kid Game, with Big Kid rules. You break the safety Rules you get Disqualified. If you want to continue to participate and not get DQ'ed then follow the rules. Most of the 180 DQ's I see happen are usually due to the shooter having ZERO concept of where their physical body, arm, gun position is when compared to the 180. Most of them don't even realize where the 180 is in the situation and are dumbfounded when you stop them and issue a DQ. Not being aware of your surroundings so you can maintain proper muzzle control is a HUGE issue to me compared to the freak situation where a shooter trips, falls and the muzzle is pointed beyond the 180.

When I run into the shooters who break the 180 because they have no understanding of where they are during the stage run I will talk to them about it and try to stress the importance of ALWAYS knowing where the 180 is. I give them examples of how they can change their movement through the stage to minimize the risk of breaking the 180. But I also back that up with the fact that if they are not always aware of where the 180 is, using alternate movement or gun handling actions really isn't going to "fix" the issue.

Fixing these issues starts by making the decision to fix the issue. If you blow it off as a "One Off" happening and do not evaluate why it happened and develop a training plan to fix the issue, then you will frequently get DQ'ed. Some shooters take DQ's as a learning opportunity and learn from the mistake. Some Shooters take DQ's as unlucky events and simply hope that they don't happen again. Which kind of shooter do you want to be?

As for the discussion about DQ proofing stages to keep shooters from hanging themselves, I call bullshit. We can't put a helmet, seat belt, or air bag on every thing to keep people from doing the wrong thing due to their lack of attention or motivation to be safe at all times. I am a firm believer of setting up valid shooting challenges that do not push the boundaries of safe angles of fire. But I am not going to idiot proof a stage to keep lazy people from sending themselves home because they can't assess the situation themselves and come up with the proper solution for navigating the stage without breaking the safety rules. These lazy people are what SHOULD be eliminated from the match via bad decisions and DQ's due to their laziness. Hopefully they learn from their DQ event lessons and if not, get fed up with throwing away their time and entry fee's because they get sent home early more than they would like. As a Match Director I am perfectly fine with these unsafe lazy shooters not coming back.

[3djedi]

Wow...I had one DQ in two years of uspsa and labeled as lazy and having zero concept of the 180?

I take this DQ seriously and own up to my mistakes. If I didn't I don't think I would be so critical of myself and post the topic. But just to be clear, this occurred at the very edge of the bay and the pistol was pointed directly into the berm with no standing room between the gun and the berm. Nobody was in danger but it did break the 180. Lesson learned. I will correct this in dryfire practice.

[MarkCO]

I would not take CHA-LEE's comments as directed at you as the OP, rather as his general observations regarding DQs he has seen spiced up by some of the comments further into the thread.

[CHA-LEE]

Wow...I had one DQ in two years of uspsa and labeled as lazy and having zero concept of the 180?

I take this DQ seriously and own up to my mistakes. If I didn't I don't think I would be so critical of myself and post the topic. But just to be clear, this occurred at the very edge of the bay and the pistol was pointed directly into the berm with no standing room between the gun and the berm. Nobody was in danger but it did break the 180. Lesson learned. I will correct this in dryfire practice.

Let me ask you this. Did YOU realize that you broke the 180 during your reload before the RO stopped you? If not, welcome to being lazy on your safety practices. Every shooter should KNOW if their gun is pointed down range or not at all times regardless of RO enforcement of the safety rules. If you don't, then you are not diligent enough in your safety practices.

[3djedi]

No I did not. Point taken. It will not happen again.

[copecowboy22]

I would not consider what the OP did as being lazy. I did the same thing. My day was going good and I was pushing to go a lil bit faster like we all are. I lost track of where I was in the bay and went 3-4 degrees past like the OP at the edge into the berm. I worked and worked so it wouldn't happen again. To me that's not being lazy. Now if it were a recurring thing that happened once a month, that's a different story.

[3djedi]

No I don't think it's laziness about safety but I see his point.