Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I feel that Gary’s idea of having a provisional division or category for 1911 single stacks is fantastic.Given support and reasonable course designs it will be the dominant USPSA shooting division. I was thinking the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I hereby volunteer to right an article Will you spell "write" correctly for the article? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Man, that post's been up for a few minutes and already two people have mentioned that. Corrected. Thanks, 300lbGorilla and AikiDale! Duane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Man, that post's been up for a few minutes and already two people have mentioned that.Corrected. Thanks, 300lbGorilla and aikidale! Duane You're most welcome. Perhaps we have been influenced by the inherently evil gun. We're just looking for something to shoot down! Anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Man, that post's been up for a few minutes and already two people have mentioned that.Corrected. Thanks, 300lbGorilla and aikidale! Duane Duane, You've got to admit that a writer misspelling write is pretty funny...... Perhaps I should tell you about the time I shot an important assignment without putting film in the camera...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 This is what a lot of the people at my local USPSA clubs have been dreaming of. I guess either we're shooting at different clubs...or you're dreaming of different people. Everyone around here (shooting L10) are already shooting single stacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I was thinking of Rick Breneman, Greg Corley, Jon Gilbert. Tell me these guys wouldn't love a SS division. Heck, they love the concept so much they've already adopted it before it even existed. But now it will be legitimized. (Just so those of you reading this will know, Steven and I shoot at many of the same clubs with the same people, thus his comment.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock-cop Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Why make another change to the divisions. There is already a division for 1911's. L-10 is dominated by the 1911. It's only at the nationals that you see shooters using thier limited guns loaded with 10 rounds. If you want to shoot by the SS rules, shoot a SS match. The SS matches allow different amounts of rounds by caliber. If you want to shoot with you're mags and holster behind you hip, go to an IDPA match and shoot CDP. Many people that have crossed over leave thier equipment that way wether they shoot IPSC or IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Many of the comments about having a new division are the same ones that we heard prior to instituting the last 3 new divisions; the potential popularity of these new divisions, how much they would attract new shooters, how they would provide a place for the beginning shooter to compete without a big financial outlay. We've heard it all before. Somehow we are to believe that USPSA will hit pay dirt with this "new" idea. If this is the great idea, why wasn't it established when, or instead, of some of the last 3 new divisions? The idea of a 1911 SS division is not a new one. It has been discussed before, as has a Glock division. Both were abandoned in favor of L10, Revolver, and Production. Don't get me wrong. I shoot a 1911, exclusively, but I am cautious about some of the attempts of USPSA BODs to "grow" the organization. Remember "20,000 by 2000"? It has turned into "Stay alive in 2005". USPSA made a conscientious effort to move the organization to high capacity, now it seems to want to go in the opposite direction, somehow, without pissing off those that it groomed to move toward high capacity, and I'm not sure whether this attempt is driven by philosophy or the search profit; I suspect the latter. I don't feel that the BOD has demonstrated the success we all hoped for with promoting the last 3 divisions. We are still struggling to fit those divisions into the USPSA concept. That is evident in how we are packaging the ever changing Nationals. If USPSA were approaching this idea from a philosophical perspective, rather than a "classification centric" perspective, I might be less skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Setting up affirmative-action for 1911's is tantamount to admitting they aren't competitive anywhere else. See the IDPA rants about CDP and .45 GAP or 10mm or whatever. And other than SSP, CDP is by far the most popular division in IDPA. There's a lesson there, I think. I hate to disagree with you here, as I hold great respect for your opinions. But as far as I can tell IDPA was designed such that the 1911 was the ideal gun for it. It is no different the cowboy sports being protectionist of their gear and designing the game around it. If you design a game aimed at shooting standing on one foot it is going to be popular with people missing a leg. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 If the Provisional Single Stack Division is approved by the USPSA BOD, is there any chance that the 1911 Society will make the 2005 Single Stack Classic an USPSA match? Richard L-1720 http://www.schennberg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 I can't speak for SSC, but I think a big factor would be the timing of the adoption, if it is adopted. Since the rule proposal is due to the BOD by March 1, and the SSC is in May, it may be too close. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I don't feel that the BOD has demonstrated the success we all hoped for with promoting the last 3 divisions. We are still struggling to fit those divisions into the USPSA concept. That is evident in how we are packaging the ever changing Nationals. I would agree with that, but would propose another way to look at it. What the USPSA Board is trying to do is to give shooters the divisions they want, but within a framework that "makes sense". At some level, it makes no sense to have 100 divisions. At some level, it makes no sense to have only one division. Somewhere in between probably lies the optimal combination, in which a shooter can shoot against other people with "functionally equivalent" gear, without making it so complicated that the results are a mess of spaghetti. If USPSA were approaching this idea from a philosophical perspective, rather than a "classification centric" perspective, I might be less skeptical. I think USPSA *is* trying to approach this from a philosophical perspective... i.e., we're trying to sort out what makes sense for the org, what has the greatest chance of holding out a welcome mat to shooters in other games, etc. Nowhere in the conversations *I* have been a part of, has "classification" been a central driver. $.02 Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I don't feel that the BOD has demonstrated the success we all hoped for with promoting the last 3 divisions. We are still struggling to fit those divisions into the USPSA concept. That is evident in how we are packaging the ever changing Nationals. I would agree with that, but would propose another way to look at it. What the USPSA Board is trying to do is to give shooters the divisions they want, but within a framework that "makes sense". At some level, it makes no sense to have 100 divisions. At some level, it makes no sense to have only one division. Somewhere in between probably lies the optimal combination, in which a shooter can shoot against other people with "functionally equivalent" gear, without making it so complicated that the results are a mess of spaghetti. If USPSA were approaching this idea from a philosophical perspective, rather than a "classification centric" perspective, I might be less skeptical. I think USPSA *is* trying to approach this from a philosophical perspective... i.e., we're trying to sort out what makes sense for the org, what has the greatest chance of holding out a welcome mat to shooters in other games, etc. Nowhere in the conversations *I* have been a part of, has "classification" been a central driver. $.02 Bruce I used the term "classification centric" because of the desire of some to approach the problem by adding another division, which in turn, sets off another round of re-classifications to play in the new division. I think another approach is possible, and I will post my thoughts on that later. Kinda busy right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 I believe that creating more division will only result in further diluting the competition in each division at the matches, particularly the club matches (my biggest concern). Think about it. You have 20-30 shooters at a match in 5 divisions, now divide that by 6, by 7, by 8, etc., or where ever we end up. I suspect that L10, Production, and Revolver will suffer the most with an additional division, and they are the ones that can least afford it. If you aren’t competing with as large a pool of shooters as possible to see how you stack up, then what is the point of competing at all. Soon you loose interest in the division (Revolver Division, for example), the division further erodes in attendance, or worse, you stop shooting matches. Rather than starting new divisions, I would like to see USPSA support “wildcat” matches, both in the rulebook and the scoring program. We are already talking about a SS division using the SSC format as the guide. I think we should adopt the SSC rules, gear, and stage design guidelines as a “wildcat” match, but don’t lock that format to the SS, rather, have the SS be part of the mix. Why not run matches under these “wildcat” guidelines for Glocks only, maybe revolvers only? It could work for many different handgun platforms. You may want to include 2 handgun platforms in the match. I can’t think of a more natural rivalry than pitting the 1911 SS camp against the Glock enthusiasts. I can see the 2 handgun platforms competing against their own gun type for score, prizes, etc., but also combining the scores to see how the gun types did against each other. It could be billed as a Godzilla vs. Mothra type of event. Maybe SW vs. Taurus would draw some interest too. Of course, I am talking about stand-alone matches, not a 6-division match. This will increase the competition within the match by having a larger pool of competitors fighting it out amongst each other. Would these types of matches draw gun manufacturers support? I think it has a better chance under this type of match where a particular gun platform gets the attention, rather than a particular division’s guidelines. Will clubs run these types of matches instead of their regular 5 division matches? They will if the members ask them, and attendance is high and enthusiastic. Money talks. What is the guy who only shoots Open going to do? Join in, or wait for the next 5 division match. I don’t envision the demise of the 5 division matches. Edited in:How would you rank the shooters? They could compete for order of finish, or they could use their highest Limited or L10 classification. If they don't hold either, they compete unclassidied. So, what’s in it for USPSA? They will not be collecting new classifier fees, since this isn’t a new division. I think that they could collect an activity fee for these “wildcat” matches, similar to what they do for their larger matches. Then there is always the possibility of attracting new membership fees as word gets around of the new and exciting changes happening in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 I'm dreading the extra hour each new division adds to the awards ceremony.. "3rd B 1911 Provisional Division.... Joe Schmoe.. <everbody clap while Joe wends his way through the crowd>" I'd like to go home now, please... At our club match, we award a medal to the winner of each division with ten or more competitors. There have been very very few medals given to L10 or Prod -- and the "entry" shooters are split between them. A third "entry" division will split things even more. If it's all about attracting new shooters and keeping up appearances, I would rather see a "novice" division-- anything goes, but after a year, you have to pick a division and play there. Somebody else posted the IHMSA experience with multiple divisions.. I'd not want to go down that route either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 I believe that creating more division will only result in further diluting the competition in each division at the matches, particularly the club matches (my biggest concern). I suspect that L10, Production, and Revolver will suffer the most with an additional division, and they are the ones that can least afford it. I disagree --- partly. About 50% of the shooters at my club matches are shooting in the three new divisions. Around here Revolver is one or two guys, their numbers won't be impacted if you add 17 more divisions --- unless a couple of those are wheelgun divisions. Production won't be impacted either, these are the guys who want to shoot DA guns with ten rounds. L-10? Well that remains to be seen ---- but I see a ton of L-10 shooters at my club with race gear, so I don't know if they'll be willing to make the switch. But I'll try to pass the word among the area's IDPA shooters if the SS division becomes a provisional reality..... And then we'll see what happens...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 My best guess is that L10 will thrive where 10 round limits are in place at the State level and where shooters will want to utilize their "race holsters and pouches." SS only Division will NOT kill L10 due to the fact that if you own anything other than a SS 1911 and are interested in loading 10 rounds only for whatever reason...L10 Division is a necessity for you. SS only Division will be frequented bu the "diehard" 1911 fan and the IDPA/SSC crossover shooter. Both sides may in the short term suffer or benefit from shooter crossover but I'd dare say that local clubs will receive their share of "dual time slot" requests from the shooter that wants to shoot L10 in the a.m. time slot and SS Division in the p.m. time slot. One frequently overlooked aspect to this is the avenue of obtaining additional revenue at the club level. If per say your club on average hosts 30 shooters and growth in membership/participation isn't what you think it should be...this new optional Division not only gives your club the opportunity to grow the ranks of your membership base through the addition of new shooters...you MAY experience some revenue growth from existing members opening their wallets one more time to shoot the new Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I understand it's only "provisional" and "optional" ... but these sorts of things have a way of "taking". FWIW, my vote is to ALLOW any Prod-legal pistol, restricted to same rds as the new "provisional" division (8+1?). It's not like any Glock, XD, Sig ... whatever ... would have a rat's chance in he11 against a single-stack anyway ... right? I'd also like to see the new "provisional" division limited to 8+1 ... so maybe we'll see some cokky 627 owners brushing the dust of them? Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I believe that creating more division will only result in further diluting the competition in each division at the matches, particularly the club matches (my biggest concern). I suspect that L10, Production, and Revolver will suffer the most with an additional division, and they are the ones that can least afford it. I disagree --- partly. About 50% of the shooters at my club matches are shooting in the three new divisions. Around here Revolver is one or two guys, their numbers won't be impacted if you add 17 more divisions --- unless a couple of those are wheelgun divisions. Production won't be impacted either, these are the guys who want to shoot DA guns with ten rounds. L-10? Well that remains to be seen ---- but I see a ton of L-10 shooters at my club with race gear, so I don't know if they'll be willing to make the switch. But I'll try to pass the word among the area's IDPA shooters if the SS division becomes a provisional reality..... And then we'll see what happens...... A SS division is doomed to failure, if what you say comes true, and there are no crossovers. Relying on IDPA shooters to make a SS division work is a loosing proposition. The pie has been sliced to razor thin pieces already. That is why I'm in favor of a stand alone match. You either pool together and come and play by one set of equipment rules, or you don't shoot, because it will be the only game in town that day. If you give the shooters a smörgåsbord of divisions to compete in they will divide up into smaller and smaller groups. My point is to drive the match attendance toward a single, larger, group (divided by USPSA class, if you choose to) that is competing against each other with the same equipment (think SSC). That is what makes shooting fun. On the other hand, if you like shooting in 5 shooter mathces/divisions, you may like small slices of pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 The problem with fewer than five divisions is deciding which ones should go. At my club, Revolver would have to be the first to go, followed by Open and Limited. L-10 would be the last division standing...... by about 1% over Production......... ....but I suspect that in other parts of the country there'd be a different breakdown of competitors. I'm excited to see what if any changes the proposed SS division may bring. It may change nothing --- it may change everything. I knwo that we got some shooters locally after Production and L-10 were created --- some shooters who left when the widebodies took over came back..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 We can debate the pros and cons of a single stack division for the next ten years. But one thing is definate, if we do not give it a try we will never know if it will work or not. IF USPSA never changed then there would be a very small group of shooters only in open division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 The problem with fewer than five divisions is deciding which ones should go. At my club, Revolver would have to be the first to go, followed by Open and Limited. L-10 would be the last division standing...... by about 1% over Production.............but I suspect that in other parts of the country there'd be a different breakdown of competitors. I'm excited to see what if any changes the proposed SS division may bring. It may change nothing --- it may change everything. I knwo that we got some shooters locally after Production and L-10 were created --- some shooters who left when the widebodies took over came back..... I hope you aren't reading into my post that I'm advocating reducing the present 5 divisions. I'm proposing NO changes to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Why don't we start making divisions for individual brands, too. Clearly that $3500 Wilson single stack is a competitive advantage over a guy with a $200 third world import clone, so why not make special divisions for them, too? In fact, why not divisions for people who don't practice? How about divisions for people who are slow? Heck, lets just have separate divisions for everybody in the match and everyone will win and have lots of self-esteem and every new shooter will come back and work all the matches and within a few years everybody in the world will be a USPSA member and grand master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 We can debate the pros and cons of a single stack division for the next ten years. But one thing is definate, if we do not give it a try we will never know if it will work or not. IF USPSA never changed then there would be a very small group of shooters only in open division. No. We don't have to try every bad idea that comes along. If we try it and it's a waste, we'll be having a similar debate about pi$$ing of single stack division shooters if we drop the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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