Bdavis Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Gary, As a shooter who has been involved in the Single Stack Classic for 8 years, I am thrilled to to see you and the BOD giving this some serious thought. I can't tell you how much fun I have had shooting the match and working with a great group of ROs, Dick and Jay Worden. It is a match that truly levels the playing field, and truly demonstrates skill levels. Every year as we register shooters who have never done the SSC before we get all sorts of questions on equipment and of course some whinning about it, but in the end almost every shooters comments have been positive. Also if memory serves me right in all the years I have been doing stats there has not been one arbitration. It is simply IPSC in its pure form and loads of fun. Thanks for working on this project. Bill Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Whatever the decision is to the rules. Serious thought should be taken as how to market this division to USPSA and outside shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapshot Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Gary, I support your proposal and the use of the SSC rules, and for sure I'll compete in the provisional division if it's made available. Thanks for all the thought and work that has already gone into this, and all that yet remains. Not everyone has the means or the interest in shooting a wide-body .40 Limited gun in L10 (Limited-Lite???) just to be competitive. I have the means, but absolutely no interest in owning a Limited gun, so I shoot my SS .45 in L10 for fun. Guess that makes me one of the "dinosaurs", but then I also think the "P" in USPSA should stand for something. Since I also shoot IDPA CDP, I already have the gear. It would be nice to use it in USPSA also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Guys, Guys, Guys... Nobody has to use this "provisional" division. Lets not mince words here...we want, and more importantly we need IDPA crossovers!!! A lot of them are upset at the new rules, and are just looking for a reason to bolt. They could come over without having to buy any additional gear...period. We could also draw the single-stackers from elsewhere (SSS). All this does is give a particular club an option to plug in a division that may be very popular in their demographic. We initially lost a lot of people to IDPA. We can recoup a lot of that with a tool like this (and make no mistake, that is all it is...a tool). You say people are going to "go out and buy equipment" and then be pissed off?!?! No way Jack...they already have it, and just need a place to use it in the USPSA landscape (and be competitive...L-10 doesn't cut it). L-10 is IMHO...a dinosaur now. Chuck said it best...the STI's and SV's dominate...period. But if L-10 must stay, this option needs to be explored. We're not looking to dillute...we're looking to add. Will it take a little bit for word to spread...yes, but IMHO it is worth it. A two year trial is not a lot to ask, and it can be removed...don't kid yourself. Carry on Gary!!! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleipnir Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 When will this madness stop? We don't need another division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Then here's a novel idea...DON'T USE IT!!!! It is optional to the club...What is so hard to understand??? It is "provisional" and optional. Gawd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 I think that this may be a good idea and should be tried. I took a look at the US Nationals and out local club program to get a idea of major matches and local programs. Our Local USPSA program is pretty active, 7 monthly matches and one major. The breakdown of shooters for 2004 is below. If you look at the numbers Limited 10 and Production make up about 1/3 of the shooters. IF you look at the breakdown from the US Handgun Nationals you see that Limted 10 and Production only make up a little more that 1/5 of the shooters. Now there is revolver which if you look at the numbers is a complete failure. The numbers show that Limited 10 and Production may be more popular at the local level, but LImited and Open still dominate at Major Matches. For all of you that argue that there are too many divisions now, maybe we should the drop revolver and roll them into production. I know that there are pockets of revolvers shooters that may have strong program. USPSA should always be looking at ideas and programs to bring in new shooters and the SS division might be a good start. Local Club Program Open 273 36% Limited 228 30% Limited 10 122 16% Production 117 16% Revolver 9 1% Total 749 US Handgun Nationals Open 218 44% Limited 161 32% Limited 10 43 9% Production 58 12% Revolver 17 3% Total 497 If we adopt a SS division then we should market it to a broad base of shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Gary Stevens, I'm perfectly happy shooting my SS .45 in L-10. I don't particularly care if there is a SS division or not. I just play the game because it's fun. But, there is an important issue for me. I want to commend you and the BOD on the way you are proposing this idea. It's not an easy thing to sell, since some people will love it and some will hate it. And knowing this, your approach is still very honest and forthright. You are doing what you feel is in the best interest of our sport. If the "provisional division" survives, it will do so because sufficient numbers of the membership have chosen to support it. If it dies away, it will do so from lack of interest by the members. The main quality of USPSA that keeps me looking forward to the competition year after year is the integrity of the people I get hang out and shoot with. This is my sport and I'm proud of it. For all of our differences of opinion about rules, we are all of one mind when it comes to our love of the game and the people we play it with. Keep up the good work and let the fur fly if it must. Just remember everybody, it's a damn fine bunch of folks you are priveledged to argue with. Sam, Once again you've written what I've been thinking/feeling. Well done, you're spot on! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supershooter Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 I have been reviewing the posts with interest. The single stack idea was Richard Heinie and mine about 12 years ago. This idea grew into The Single Stack Classic. This idea must have been a good one because this year it will be the 11th SSC match. A little history the SSC predates IDPA, Limited 10 and started about the same time as Limited. The basic idea behind the SSC is to have an equipment neutral shooting match. The guns, holster and mag pouches are all basically the same. It’s all up to shooters skill. I feel that Gary’s idea of having a provisional division or category for 1911 single stacks is fantastic. Given support and reasonable course designs it will be the dominant USPSA shooting division. Gary you have my full support. Russell Cluver Match Director 1911 Single Stack Classic Vice President Single Stack Shooting Society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Gary, Thank you for addressing a controversial situation. I am glad to have you as my A5 Director. What really appeals to me about a SS only class is the level playing field as previously presented by BDAVIS and Supershooter. i.e., one could apply as many custom touches to his/her .45 SS and not really have that much of an advantage over a reliable over the counter .45 SS. It would probably steal me from Limited, not L10. And as already stated, if it works, great, demand met. If not, well that's what provisional means. Definitely worth a try. I also like the idea of a more directed marketing attempt. I think most of us are proud of our sport and would promote it voluntarily. Some good guidelines/programs would be a positive I believe. Tom Bergman "C" Lim 10, Lim, Prod Edited for spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Gary...an intriguing proposition! Congratulations to you and the BoD for coming up with it. If it is handled correctly, I think it may well do exactly what you think in terms of marketing and reaching out to new/crossover shooters. I've seen the annual sales figures for 1911s, and — good lord! — everybody must have at least two by now! And yet every time I talk to ANY gun company not playing the 1911 game, I get an update on *their* 1911 project (Glock excepted...for now). On all the other points, FWIW coming from a non-member, I'm in agreement with Chuck B. right down the line. I'd shoot it, just for the heck of it. Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Gary, Thank you and the BoD for deciding to let the membership decided if they want something instead of deciding for us. I have no idea if this will be successful or not but by giving it a try shows just how much respect the USPSA leadership has for its members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Single Stack gun owners CAN shoot Limited and L10 Divisions now...that's inclusive. Adding a SS only Division is in my opinion an Inclusive act. It now gives the SS 1911 shooter 3 iron sight Divisions in which to compete. I can honestly see myself shooting L10 with my 10 round only mags in my SVI in the morning squad and switching gear to my Combat Commander and carry rig and shooting 1911 SS Division in the afternoon squad at my local club. Double the fun...double the capital intake at the club level...winners all around. Taking L10 Division as some wish to do and relegating it to SS 1911's only is "affirmative action." It's restrictive at best.... Gary's proposal does not do this....thank you once again. Ready...willing and able to practice what I preach as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspian_45 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Gary PLEASE PLEASE get this SSC division up and running....Cause I am going to need a place to use my recently outlawed IDPA gear. I have a safe full of 1911's. Other than IDPA and SSC they don't get shot much. If I am going to shot L-10 I am going to use my STI Limited race gun with the Big A** magwell. I think Rhino is right on the money. If there is a chance for attracting new shooters or old ones that got out cause of the equip race. GREAT. I would be in favor for letting Sig 220's, Ruger single stack type guns, etc. Hell let S&W model 52's in too. How about HK P7 M8's. Oh yeah I got a Walther P-38 and a P-08 Luger I want to use. need to play too. Feel free to add to the list. Point is you can't make everyone happy. I sugest compiling a list of the single stack guns that you think needs to be add to Gary's division and see what kinda of feed back you can get. I am all for getting more people shooting. And if adding the guns you sugest will do that. Go for it. Sorry for the rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 QUOTE (Sam @ Jan 19 2005, 05:45 PM) Gary Stevens, I'm perfectly happy shooting my SS .45 in L-10. I don't particularly care if there is a SS division or not. I just play the game because it's fun. But, there is an important issue for me. I want to commend you and the BOD on the way you are proposing this idea. It's not an easy thing to sell, since some people will love it and some will hate it. And knowing this, your approach is still very honest and forthright. You are doing what you feel is in the best interest of our sport. If the "provisional division" survives, it will do so because sufficient numbers of the membership have chosen to support it. If it dies away, it will do so from lack of interest by the members. The main quality of USPSA that keeps me looking forward to the competition year after year is the integrity of the people I get hang out and shoot with. This is my sport and I'm proud of it. For all of our differences of opinion about rules, we are all of one mind when it comes to our love of the game and the people we play it with. Keep up the good work and let the fur fly if it must. Just remember everybody, it's a damn fine bunch of folks you are priveledged to argue with. Sam, Once again you've written what I've been thinking/feeling. Well done, you're spot on! Ed Hey, thanks for immortalizing my post R-N-G! Looks like one of the Mods must have taken offense to it. Hmmm...maybe I should have said "darn fine bunch of folks" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Hey, thanks for immortalizing my post R-N-G! Looks like one of the Mods must have taken offense to it. Hmmm...maybe I should have said "darn fine bunch of folks" Sam, It looks like they moved not only your post but a lot of others too! I THOUGHT it was to good a post to simply delete! Here it is! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 USPSA just changed the rules to allow 9 rounds from a shooting position. Now they want to have a new division that restrict the shooter to 8 round mags. Left hand, let me introduce you to the right hand. You two need to work in concert with each other. Now, let's get to work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 USPSA just changed the rules to allow 9 rounds from a shooting position. Now they want to have a new division that restrict the shooter to 8 round mags. I dont see the signifigance of the round count. Even with 50 rounds from one spot all the divisions would be competing against those in their division. It just doesnt matter if a single stack or production gun has to make a standing reload. Everybody in that division has to do the same. If all the guns competed heads up then there would be an argument but as it stands there just isnt one. Bottom line is I belive that there is a good number of shooters, current , old, new, crossover that would utilize this division. They want a place to compete with equal equipment just like everybody else does. Shooting a Single stack int that other division just doesnt cut it, unless you are Robbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 USPSA just changed the rules to allow 9 rounds from a shooting position. Now they want to have a new division that restrict the shooter to 8 round mags. Left hand, let me introduce you to the right hand. You two need to work in concert with each other. Now, let's get to work! USPSA went with the worlkd body on this. Since 1911SingleStack is going to be provisional, I do not expect any rule change. Since it will also be optiona,l, it may be accompanied by a suggestion to design stages with 8 in mind if you are offering this option. Although everyone is equal, I can appreciate the frustration of a competitor having to do reloads at awkward times - even if everyone else in the division has a similar burden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 What chuck just said about round counts. AND why do we allow 9 rounds or even 8? We have limited revolvers to 6 shots fired before reloading. No I don't want to change the RC to 6, I just don't see a problem with the round counts we have. I personally think that SS if that is what it is called should be open to all single stacks and maybe have a round limit of 10 rounds, or maybe a limit of a flush fitting magazine. Problem with that is that it would drive the division towards the highest capacity gun available with a leagal mag. Better we set a capacity limit. I opt for 10 rounds and allow all Single Stacks. Action can be SA, DA or DAO, who cares? I would not change L-10, there are too many people in areas that cannot own standard capacity mags where they live, but still shoot their widebody guns, when the travel they have mags they use that allow full capacity. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 The weak link in this idea is that the round count in the stages of the Single Stack Classic are restricted to a maximum of 24 rounds. This brings some degree of sanity to the number of 8 round mags that will be required to be carried behind the hip. USPSA matches don't have this restriction. I believe course design, and its friendliness (or lack thereof) to the singlestack division will be driven by participation. IOW if SS swiftly becomes the most popular division at the club - and I believe it would - then MDs will have no choice but to design and offer SS friendly stages, or face a lot of POed "customers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 We can nit pick the details to DEATH if we so wish... I'm looking for one answer, one major indicator that I've heard and read over and over again and that is, ... " shooters would come out of the woodwork if he had a 1911 SS only Division."Well...the the opportunity for that to happen is upon us. I'll be VERY interested in the outcome. I hereby volunteer to write an article - probably more than one - on the new Singlestack division (provisional though it may be) as soon as it becomes reality. This is what a lot of the people at my local USPSA clubs have been dreaming of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Setting up affirmative-action for 1911's is tantamount to admitting they aren't competitive anywhere else. See the IDPA rants about CDP and .45 GAP or 10mm or whatever. And other than SSP, CDP is by far the most popular division in IDPA. There's a lesson there, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Since we haven't shot USPSA from concealment in decades I can't see a good reason for a restrictive holster position I can. If the entire idea behind SS is to make it a USPSA division that's friendly to new shooters, then we want people to be able to come in and run the same holster/mag pouch(es) they already use for concealed carry and/or IDPA without having to lay out the bucks for a race rig. Though admittedly in USPSA they'd probably have to spring for more in the way of mag pouch(es), that's a minor thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 USPSA just changed the rules to allow 9 rounds from a shooting position. Now they want to have a new division that restrict the shooter to 8 round mags. Left hand, let me introduce you to the right hand. You two need to work in concert with each other. Now, let's get to work! USPSA went with the worlkd body on this. Since 1911SingleStack is going to be provisional, I do not expect any rule change. Since it will also be optiona,l, it may be accompanied by a suggestion to design stages with 8 in mind if you are offering this option. Although everyone is equal, I can appreciate the frustration of a competitor having to do reloads at ackqard times - even if everyone else in the division has a similar burden. Unbelievable!!! One of the big reasons for the lack of success with Revolver Division is the fact that shooting standing reloads due to course design just ain't any fun. Now you are proposing the same marketing handicap to a new division under the same flawed logic that everyone in the division has to do the same. Who cares if everyone has to do it, it ain't fun. Rob, your answer suggests that these 1911 singlestack matches are not going to be integrated into the matches with the other divisions when you say, "design stages with 8 in mind if you are offering this option". You are suggesting that all of the other divisions are to accommodate the 8 round mag. I think you are going to build in resentment with those that have been pushing for round count in their matches, thus, the move to 9 rounds per position. I wonder why you didn't have the same concerns about accommodating the Revolver Division, but instead dropped their capacity to 6 rounds without cajoling the stage designers to have 6 round neutral matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts