Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

"Provisional Division"


Gary Stevens

Recommended Posts

I thank everyone for what must have been a lot of work, as well as the work yet to do.

I have no personal interest in this division, but the thought that L-10 will be left alone (I think it will continue to be attacked by some) will help me sleep better at night.

This new division, combined with Production should be aggressively advertised. If advertising contained little to no mention of the other divisions, we may be able to eventually shed the idea that "I need a $3000 racegun to shoot IPSC" that most of us deal with when trying to recruit new shooters. Open, Limited, and the L-10 racer types already know USPSA is where to shoot; if not, then they'll find out at their first match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 144
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Gary or Rob,

Is there a target date that the initial rules for this division will be posted/implemented? Our local club is planning on setting up a booth at a large gun show in the area, and this info would be great to have in targeting new members.

I may have missed the answer to this in earlier posts, if so just let me know.

Thanks,

Doug

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the intended purpose of the proposed division I have outlined the intent in some of the previous messages, check out the easy cross over from other shooting sports and the marketing possibilities post.

As to the time frame, we have to report back to the BOD by 3-1-05 with out outline of the program. So maybe shortly after that, if it is accepted.

Once again, forget the L-10 race holsters and such. This will be either something different, and challenging, or I'll try to kill it where it stands. I will not have just another L-10 want-a-be division. It does not serve the intended purpose.

Thanks,

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the idea of this provisional division is a great one that would open up entries for several manufacturers. I had a chance to buy a Sig P220 at a nice price but I couldn't find any 10 round magazines so I wasn't going to compete in L10 with an 8+1 gun against downloaded S_I. One club I shoot at has a Single Stack match each year and last year there were as many competitors as a normal USPSA match. I remember how badly the idea of a Production division was received in the beginning but now every club has Production shooters.

Thanks for the effort Gary, Rob and everyone else that I can't remember.

NRA has a bumper sticker "If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that all singlestacks should be allowed to play. Look at what Ernie Langdon did in IDPA's CDP.

Stuff to consider: What guns are allowed? What mods? Long dustcovers? Bull barrels? 6-inch guns? Must fit a box w/ mag inserted? STI singlestack-framed guns?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The weak link in this idea is that the round count in the stages of the Single Stack Classic are restricted to a maximum of 24 rounds. This brings some degree of sanity to the number of 8 round mags that will be required to be carried behind the hip. USPSA matches don't have this restriction. As it is, I carry up to 6 ten round mags when I shoot L10 with a 1911 singlestack, and that is starting from my belly button, not my hip bone.

Production Division "gets by" this problem with using ten round mags. The two round difference in capacity is significant to the number of strategic reloads that one may want make in a high round count stage.

A better idea may be to have USPSA develop a set of official rules (including integration into the classification system and scoring program), along the lines of the Single Stack Classic (24 rounds max), so that clubs could run stand alone 1911 Single Stack matches. USPSA would get its activity fees, and the shooter will get a classification.

I wonder if the Single Stack Classic would start referencing these new classifications in their match scores, rather than the "order of finish" that they presently use? Is any of this being discussed/co-ordinated between USPSA and the Single Stack Society? Would it be helpful, if it was?

If I choose to compete in this provisional division, will I be exempt from the "real" match scores, or awards?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gary you have my vote and support.

I think that adopting the SSC rules for this division will be the best way to go.

1911 only. 5 inch bushing barrels only (NO LONG SLIDES) unless they come from the factory with a bull barrel ie: Detonics Scoremasters, Combatmasters, etc. Definitely production type holster rules.

If you can't get 5 mag pouches on your belt ..... STOP eating at Subway.

Tony Hawkins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The stages for the provisional SS division must have no different rules than the other 5 divisions. If we/you want this divison to suceed, it should fit into our regular matches seamlessly. If we set round count limits that don't match the rest of the divisons then we are effectively saying that this will be a whole different match. The clubs would have to set up two complete matches.

We don't set a round count limit on Revolver. They have a 6 round limit. Why do we feel we need a limit on SS?

Jim Norman

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't set a round count limit on Revolver. They have a 6 round limit. Why do we feel we need a limit on SS?

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! BTW, guys, it's not from the exact side of your body back, it's from the hip-bone back. That should allow you to fit at least one more mag in front of where you normally would put them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The stages for the provisional SS division must have no different rules than the other 5 divisions. If we/you want this divison to suceed, it should fit into our regular matches seamlessly. If we set round count limits that don't match the rest of the divisons then we are effectively saying that this will be a whole different match. The clubs would have to set up two complete matches.

We don't set a round count limit on Revolver. They have a 6 round limit. Why do we feel we need a limit on SS?

Jim Norman

Revolver Division doesn't have to carry their ammo behind their hip. Location, location, location.

If I have a choice at a match to either shoot my SS in L10 with a race holster and pouches, or the new SS division with 8 round mags from behind the hip, and I'm looking at 32 round stages, or possibly higher, I'm going to choose L10 everytime.

Shooting a SS with 8 round mags from behind the hip on a 32 round COF is weak, at best, in incentivising a potential new member to participate in USPSA. Ask any IDPA CDP shooter. Stage design matters when using that format. That is why the SSC does what it does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wonderful Idea Gary, Thanks! :D

The 1911 Society equipment rules are okay as are using production rules for holsters and mag pouches. If I just had to tinker with any of this I would suggest limiting it to .45 with a 184 power factor. :ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the problem omnia1911 points out, but rather than altering stages, all we have to do is alter the positioning of mag pouches. Let people carry mags in front.

And personally, I still think we should allow race holsters...I just don't want to have to go out and buy another. If I duct tape some card board over a Safariland 009 race holster, would that work as a production-type holster? (triggerguard completely covered, not cut below lower than 1/4" below front of ejection port).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We can nit pick the details to DEATH if we so wish... I'm looking for one answer, one major indicator that I've heard and read over and over again and that is, ... " shooters would come out of the woodwork if he had a 1911 SS only Division."

Well...the the opportunity for that to happen is upon us.

I'll be VERY interested in the outcome. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We can nit pick the details to DEATH if we so wish... I'm looking for one answer, one major indicator that I've heard and read over and over again and that is, ...  " shooters would come out of the woodwork if he had a 1911 SS only Division."

If only I had a $ for every time I've heard "if only we do ... then shooters will come out of the woodwork.."

Setting up affirmative-action for 1911's is tantamount to admitting they aren't competitive anywhere else. See the IDPA rants about CDP and .45 GAP or 10mm or whatever.

I sorta like the idea of a 'one-design' class, but also think we need another full division like we need a hole in the head.

The current structure is elegant in that any gun can 'move up' in divisions-- you can shoot all of them with a revolver, all but one with a production gun, and all but 2 with a Limited or L10 gun. Not saying that's the best reason to keep it, but at least it makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a great idea and will be very popular and might even bring back some shooters who put away their gear when the hi caps came along. I have offered a single stack division at my home club a few times and it was always very popular. My vote would be for keeping it simple. One of the biggest headaches for SSC and IDPA for that matter is restrictive holster position. Taking that in consideration and the round count of most USPSA stages, race type holsters and any mag holder position makes sense and would have the broadest appeal. Since we haven't shot USPSA from concealment in decades I can't see a good reason for a restrictive holster position but there's nothing to keep someone from wearing their gear concealed carry style if they want. Keep the power factor at 165 for major, but also have minor scoring for 9x19 and 38 super, flush fitting mags, allow bull barrels, and the usual limited type mods. Too many factory guns have bull barrels to leave them out and this way you could shoot your lim 10 legal single stack in the division with just different mags. For myself I'd love to have the longslide legal and make it a 45 acp only division but I'm probably in the minority on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of people had constructive advice and critisism in this thread and I think that most of what I could contribute about the "creation" of this division has been already said.

However I have a different question. When and how do we decide it has worked or that it has failed? How many shooters do we need to see involved? After how long do we call it a failure or success? If those benchmarks are not set at the outset then how will we ever know if the effort is worth it.

Personally I predict failure. You are asking to create a different game within a game. What other design do we protect with its own DIVISION? Why is Flex's question not given more attention? There are a LOT more glocks used then 1911s and I've even sure that a lot more of them are being sold everyday. If the only real reason is to make a class where the SS can be trully competitive because of their capacity issues then why not allow the Sig220 or Taurus 945 or the Ruger whatever, all of them single stack 45s. I really think it is out of character for USPSA to create a protectionist division for the 1911. Think of it this way ... Would you support a USPSA Division for the Colt Single Action Army revolver? After all it can not compete against the high zoot double action revolvers and pivoting cylinders. And think of all the shooters and sponsors we might attract from CASS*! Does this sound like a good idea to anyone?

I get that lots of people love the old gun. I do to. I shoot mine in L10 and it is one of my night stand guns. But I do not feel the need to claim that it is the ULTIMATE boom stick of instant death and request a pool in which it can swim by itself. Folks, please rememeber that there is a P somewhere in USPSA and IPSC and we should try to see what works best, not only what worked best at some point.

Vlad

*The SSA idea was shamelesly stolen from forum member raz-0 who had that idea in our office the other day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Folks you keep asking questions that I have already outlined. We would study the venture for possibly 2-3 years. If the numbers and interest are sufficient to warrant consideration for permanent status, then we (the BOD) would have to cross that bridge at that time.

As to stage design, there is no mandate to do anything. The book allows for up to 9 rounds from a position, it doesn't mandate 9 rounds. You can have as few as 1 round and up to 9 per position. It is up to the course designers to design courses.

If a club or match decides to venture into the 1911 provisional division area, I would assume they would consider rounds per position when they design the matches. Maybe they won't. The bottom line the members will drive this idea one way or the other, and that is how it should be.

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not a member of USPSA yet (pending funds from Berryville), but if you guys adopt this division it's where I'll start. From the sounds of it I can use my freshly disavowed Blade-Tech, my hoffner's carriers, and go on my merry way. I can't speak for other freshly-disaffected CDP shooters (I know I can't be the only one) but this class might be the hot ticket to get more of us to come over.

On another topic, here's something you folk may not have thought about. One reason that USPSA might not have grown is because nobody's out there "gathering in the sheep." I was up at my old home club for last weekend and everybody was up in arms about the rule changes. Lots of people were ready to give production or L-10 a try (except for the commandos, of course) but it just wasn't feasible for most- the closest USPSA club is over 100 miles away. This is a club that supports regular season IDPA matches of 30-50 shooters ( a nuber that seems to have decreased in recent years), a large portion of which shoot SSP and CDP- classes that would dovetail with this new provisional class and Production. Get out there and spread the gamer gospel, folks! Not all of us IDPA shooters are gun-shop commandos- you'd get more cross-overs than you might think!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Provisional?!?!?  yeah...right.  How are you gong to giveth...then taketh away???

"Provisional" means "not cast in stone." If we try something under a provisional divsion, we may find the need to tweak it after a year of experience. The provisional designation means that USPSA will feel free to change the speciifcations of the proto division with a bit less concern for the installed base and "protection of investment" in existing guns.

For example, if we start without allowing cone barrels and find that allowing them would improve the sport (for example, if Kimber, Springfield and S&W suddenly started shipping code bbls as a default configuration), the "provisional" nature means we do not have to think "what about all those people with conventional barrels who would have preferred to buy a cone if we had allowed it?".

Also, a provisional division is easier to remove if we built it and nobody comes. In addition, I expect it will be optional for matches to recognize this cativision (category or division).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My suggestions for the new SS equipment rules.

Allow all of the modifications to the gun as Limited and Limited 10 allow.

Restrict magizine capacity to 8+1 rounds.

No Box or weight limits

Use the production guidelines for holster position and modify the mag position to allow two mags in front of the mid line and the rest behind.

Do not make it 1911 only, allow all SS autos.

Keep the major/minor standards of limited.

For the COF rules, no changes from current rules. There is a 32 round restriction to stages now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...