Gary Stevens Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 Well the final product, if there is one 2-3 years down the road might be just that. However I am opposed to it for this reason. My purposed for this is not to allow me to get my 1911's out and play with them, despite what some people think. My purpose is to help grow the sport by providing very easy crossover oportunities from other shooting sports. In addition it may provide a marketing opportunity from gun companies that might step up and help this project out. Think of the companies that produce 1911's that are not actively involved in USPSA and see the marketing opportunities. I am afraid that the marketing aspect would be damaged by making it a category and not a division. A division has an element of stature that the category does not have. That this is a provisional division the club, match must make the decision to accept the additional work on their own. They are not forced by USPSA to do so. I hope they will make the effort, but ultimately it will be up to the members to drive the process. As to the shooters who are participating in other sports some hopefully many, may take the venture someday and try our sport. Those that I know of who have, seldom leave. What will cause this to be a surefire failure is to just make a L-10 lite-lite division. It has to be different, sensible, and challenging. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Yes ... yes ... a Single Stack Division IN ADDITION TO Limited10 ... very good ... very good ...The 1911 Society Rules on how many rounds you can load are excellent and I think the new USPSA SS1911 division adopt them (i.e. 8+1 max for major; 9+1 for minor .40/10mm, and 10+1 for 9xXXmm). Good thing I ordered that quad mag carrier from Blade-Tech if we're going to have a holster position rule! Yeah, no joke, trying wear 5 single stack mag pouches behind the hip might be a pain in the butt. Especially for the skinny guys with 30" waists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 That sounds like a very good idea. That is going to be very attractive to both the guys who want to play "old school" and IDPA 1911 crossover shooters. When should members be writing their AD's to support such a measure? Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 Well Ted, there is no time like the present. I'll be honest with you, the conseus on this is not 100 percent. If you think this is a good idea, contact your AD and the President now. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Yeah, no joke, trying wear 5 single stack mag pouches behind the hip might be a pain in the butt. Especially for the skinny guys with 30" waists. Production shooters manage it every day, many with six pouches....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Yeah, no joke, trying wear 5 single stack mag pouches behind the hip might be a pain in the butt. Especially for the skinny guys with 30" waists. Production shooters manage it every day, many with six pouches....... Don't most production shooters shoot 10 mags? If so, for a 21-28 round stage, they'd only need 2-3 mags, while joe blow singlestacker having to use at least 3 and probably 4. I guess push comes to shove, it can be done, but I was thinking it would just be a heck of a lot more fun to just go ahead and use a race holster and mag pouches as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 No doubt. I remember when I was shooting Production, my last mag was in the small of my back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Ellis Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 When I returned to USPSA/IPSC a little over a year ago after a decade plus layoff, I asked what should I get for an entry level gun. The question in return was "What did you shoot before?" A 1911 in .45. "Get another one and shoot L-10." Dusting off my old Ernie Hill leather I went to work with 8 round mags I had left over (8 round mags were 'hi-cap' in those days). I've since upgraded holster and mags but still pounded out 10K rounds last year. What does this story have to do with this thread? Everything. A SS Division would have been the place for me, the entry (re-entry?) level shooter to compete on a more or less level field without the initial outlay for race gear. It will be the perfect training ground for new shooters and if you wish to get your GM card with a SS and Production type gear, go for it. You will have my respect. Much as Production is introducing the game to the DA crowd, the SS Division will introduce the game to owners of the SA SS. And there are a bunch of them out there. With proper marketing, I believe it will do great good for USPSA. It will be a long road and some of the Single Stack Society rules can be a ROs nightmare. "What's he shooting? 45 or 40? Major or minor? How many rounds did he fire on that string before the reload?" My opinion on that is to keep it at 8 rounds no matter what caliber your shooting if for no other reason than it would be so much easier to enforce. And thank you for leaving L-10 alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Gary --- if our club decides to run this provisional division, where in the EZWinscore program is this provisional division? We usually have competitors in all five current Divisions at our monthly matches; any suggestions? Thank you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 The committee proposal is going to itemize any necessary changes to EzWinScore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 Your asking a fellow from Eastern Kentucky about computers? Thanks for your confidence Rob Boudrie, Area 7 Director, and USPSA Webmaster told me in some type of foreign language that it was a process of an Info File adjustment and that I shouldn't worry about it. Although I will worry about it, if Rob says it, I tend to believe it. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Gary, I'm for your proposal all the way. The only thing I would suggest is it needs support and promotion from HQ. More than L-10, Production, and Revo got when they were started. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Cool...now lets start working on that "Glock Only" Division!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Count me in... Always need an excuse for a new blaster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Yeah, no joke, trying wear 5 single stack mag pouches behind the hip might be a pain in the butt. Especially for the skinny guys with 30" waists. Been there, done that for 2 years in a row, when I started shooting IPSC with my Series 80 .45" SS. Shot it in Standard Division, meaning I competed against .40" hi-caps all the time. By the time I reached B-class, and was able to steadily score above 60% in league matches, I switched to an SVI. In retrospect, great training ground! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I like it with 8 rd mags, any holster/mag position. I concealed carry a lot with a gun forward of my hip. On the hip sounds and looks cool but sometimes prints so in the real world its either behind or forward. Just trying to make a "real" world point. You could make it easy by following Production but I would follow L10 since I don't care what some say but, Its a LOT of mags to keep behind your hip. Its 8 rds not 10 so depending on course its 1 to 3 more mags. You Production and L10 people know what I mean. Sometimes you do shoot 2 and reload to a fresh 10 rd mag. Think about having 8? Forget that 9mm-10 rds, .45-8 rds silly stuff. Heads up baby will make this a real fun division taking you back to the roots. Watch out though if it happens the "trick" gun will be a .40 heavy frame SS with bull barrel , with sight on barrel. Maybe a factory flared magwell. Don't think so? You haven't been around very long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Will Rugers,Sig 220 and other single stack autos be allowed in this division or will it be 1911's only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Gary, Could you provide the purpose and objective of this Provisional 1911 Single Stack Division. It would help to provide you and other BOD members with focused input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Well let me stir this pot a bit The SSC rules allow major power factor at .400 caliber and above, but they limit the magazine capacity for major to 8+1 rounds. They also allow up to 10 rounds in a standard length magazine for 9mm and 38 super, but restrict them to minor power factor. You could also shoot 9 rounds of 40 at minor power factor. I actually like this as it gives the shooter an option. Score major with 8+1 or score minor with 9+1 or a 10+1. Makes you think a bit. Gary I predict that unless there's a serious modification to typical USPSA stage design that the blaster-to-have in "1911-protected-class" will be a 10-round 9mm or Super shooting Minor. With the low points-down of the top shooters, the 20% more rounds will be far more of an advantage. Boy that'll show the crossover shooters "yeah, we have a place for .45 ACP 1911's, but really you want one of these custom 9mms..". the SSC has stage design to compensate, but typical USPSA matches won't. Can we say "9 rounds per position?" everybody? Will a STI with a single-stack grip on it be able to shoot single-stack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysued Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Is there a factory 45 ammo that comes in around 165 pf? maybe set the PF around where most factory is at so we can use factory to play. Chuck Chuck, the Magtech 230gr 45 ACP ammo is arround 168-170 PF, we tested it for last years Nationals. Great shooting ammo. Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysued Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I dont think it should be a division where there is a equipment race. If you want to do that you have OPen, Limited , L10. Even production to a point. It should be kept simple so we can enjoy shooting the 45 1911. If others want to shoot 9mm, 40 , 10mm etc then ok but as long as its not an advantage to shoot anything other than a 45. Amen Chuck!! It should be just that!! Old Stinky Leather Holster and a couple of really crappy Pouches!! Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysued Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Well let me stir this pot a bit The SSC rules allow major power factor at .400 caliber and above, but they limit the magazine capacity for major to 8+1 rounds. They also allow up to 10 rounds in a standard length magazine for 9mm and 38 super, but restrict them to minor power factor. You could also shoot 9 rounds of 40 at minor power factor. I actually like this as it gives the shooter an option. Score major with 8+1 or score minor with 9+1 or a 10+1. Makes you think a bit. Gary Sounds OKeydokey to me! Great Idea! Thanks for the hard work on this!! Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I like it with 8 rd mags, any holster/mag position. <snip> Watch out though if it happens the "trick" gun will be a .40 heavy frame SS with bull barrel , with sight on barrel. Maybe a factory flared magwell. Don't think so? You haven't been around very long I agree with any holster/mag position. If it's otherwise based on single stack classic rules, then there won't be much of an equipment race. No bull barrels, bushing only. You might eventually have some manufacturer come out with a long/heavy single stack frame and a mag well, but I don't see those as huge advantages. If this provisional division happens and I can use any holster/mag position, I'm probably going to end up building a new gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I predict that unless there's a serious modification to typical USPSA stage design that the blaster-to-have in "1911-protected-class" will be a 10-round 9mm or Super shooting Minor. With the low points-down of the top shooters, the 20% more rounds will be far more of an advantage. Boy that'll show the crossover shooters "yeah, we have a place for .45 ACP 1911's, but really you want one of these custom 9mms..". the SSC has stage design to compensate, but typical USPSA matches won't. Can we say "9 rounds per position?" everybody? Will a STI with a single-stack grip on it be able to shoot single-stack? You think it would really shake out that way? Maybe for the absolute top folks, but I don't think most would give up shooting major for an extra round or two. If so, I think it would be an interesting but fair trade-off, considering the difference between A-C hits in major and minor is 10% of the points available and 20% down from A-A hits. As long as you don't have a lot of >8 round target arrays, I don't think it would make much of a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 The highest a minor shooter at the SSC was a couple of years ago 6th OA. The following year he shot major. If memory serves me right. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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