How to stop scope cross hairs from dancing (AR15/rifle technique)

[Danattherock]

Always fancied myself a decent shot, but that mindset is crippling. These past few weeks I have been load testing reloads in my Barnes Precision AR15 and it's been a humbling experience. It's not a bull barrel target gun, its an infantry style weapon with 16" stainless Montana barrel, but very accurate reputation locally. They are made here in NC and quite popular in local 3 gun circles.

Shot an 0.885" eight shot group with 69 SMK and Varget, but still working that load up. I'm also working up a 55 gr plinking load and a 77 SMK 300-600 yard load. Using my trusty 15 year old Burris Signature 6-24 cranked all the way up, I can not keep the scope reticle perfectly still. Using a decent rifle rest for load development but AR fits in it a little odd. It's almost like seeing my heart beat in the cross hair. A slight bit of movement, but I can't seem to stop it.

What technique do you find useful to steady the scope? I am particularly interested in shoulder pressure, breathing, trigger control, and such. I have never been around any serious rifle shooters so don't have much to emulate. Not sure which of the YouTube heroes are worth listening to, if any. I am self taught, if taught even makes sense. Point being, all aspects of my marksmanship are up for re-evaluation.

From a vision standpoint, I am going to get an eye exam which is overdue and some contacts. I have a hard time keeping focus at the angle I look through my eye glasses so that is a potential issue. At 6'6" 320 lbs, I am quite hunched over at the bench. Ill fitting on the bench like many other things in life. But it forces me to look through the very top portion of my glasses, at an angle, which causes some distortion perhaps. Had same issue years ago playing billiards. Balls appeared slight wider and shorter than they actually are.

But for now I am wanting to improve my technique which clearly has some short comings. Any and all suggestions appreciated. Any good DVD or books? Thanks guys. Sucks knowing you are the weak link. Would like to change that.

Dan

[Hi-Power Jack]

Have you tried sandbags front and back?

[glock34shooter]

If you are shooting at 100 yards I would back the power down. Remember your scope magnifies everything. Unless you are not touching the gun there will be some movement. This is why snipers call their shots and note where they believe the crosshairs were at the time the shoot broke. You will also have to follow all the the fundamentals if you want the desired results.

Matt

[Steve RA]

The sights will move a little each time your heart beats, if not, you may have a serious problem. So, time the shot to break at the end of movement and before it starts back again.

[JPeel]

The sights will move a little each time your heart beats, if not, you may have a serious problem. So, time the shot to break at the end of movement and before it starts back again.

When I'm working on my groups for load development I can really get in tune with my heart rate and get the timing right. I won't break a shot unless I'm in that groove. A perfectly still reticle is not possible when you're touching the gun.

Using front and rear bags helps tremendously. I wouldn't try to shoot load development groups without them. And don't forget to breathe. Time the shot so that you're exhaling and in between heartbeats and you'll see the results you're after.

Edited August 23, 2014 by JPeel

[redial]

If you ever discover the cure, you will RULE Camp Perry, Bisley, Connaught, et al. They may not carry you around in The Chair afterward, however - we rifle folks tend to be skinny weaklings ;-)

My bench technique was helped a lot by getting my chest away from the bench, eliminating that pulse contact. A huge pulse influence comes from the diaphragm area and lesser ones from your face, hands, shoulder. Position the rifle high enough to allow a more upright head placement, if possible and much of the other stuff will fall in line.

Mark

[Nick S]

back off the scope power for 100. not needed.

[Danattherock]

Thanks guys. Much to think about. Will try to figure out how to get more upright, a big challenge at my height on bench available to me, using my lead sled solo. Lots to think about and I appreciate it. Went to range today testing some reloads and had solid results with bipod and sling. Still see the heart beating around. The upright position getting chest off the bench makes a lot of sense. As is, I am smothering the gun and bench with my torso. Cheek weld is terrible on my AR. Need a 1/8-1/4" riser pad of some sorts. Among other issues with the archer. Ha ha.

Dan

[dogtired]

I think using a "precision rifle target" helps as well. You align the crosshairs with the targets cross bars and can better hold the gun still. I am having trouble posting an example target off my phone. Adjust the magnification to achieve the best results.

Edited August 26, 2014 by dogtired

[Steve RA]

This works pretty well - "clock" dot is 1.5" dia.

[Moltke]

Are you doing this for 3 Gun?

[JPeel]

I just saw where you said you cranked your scope up to 24 power. That's way higher than you need for 100 yard load development. And way more than you'd want on any three gun match. Get used to using your lowest power, which is my highest power.

[uncledoc]

The sights will move a little each time your heart beats, if not, you may have a serious problem. So, time the shot to break at the end of movement and before it starts back again.

I tried the between hearbeats at the range last night and my results were impressive! Fairly new to rifle shooting, so any tips are appreciated!

[Shooter115]

First thing is to have a heavy front rest and rear bag on a solid bench. Sounds like you already have a lead sled, while not ideal, should work fine for your intended purposes here.

Next do what you can to remove the human element as much as possible. Don't lean your body into the bench and remove all contact from the rifle except a loose grip hand, your trigger finger and your stock barely contacting your shoulder. Right elbow (for a right handed shooter) should be supported on a bag or pad to minimize pulse rebound.

Let the rifle free recoil. I'm not saying don't control the rifle, but don't be pulled tight into it. It's a light caliber cartridge and it's not going to go anywhere, let alone bounce out of your rest or anything like that. One thing to be aware of here is, when letting a semi-auto free-recoil it brings up the possibility of doubling via "bump fire", especially if you have a light trigger.

I see a bunch of posters saying "just turn the power down", like that's going to make your movement go away. "Out of sight" does not translate to "not a factor" when shooting for small groups. Crank that puppy all the way up so you can see exactly what is happening down range. For indoor 4-position rimfire I use a 24X scope at 50'. You want to see your pulse and any other elements that are going to affect your POA/POI.

[Danattherock]

Exactly. Thanks shooter. I am troubled because my technique is flawed. Which I wouldn't have seen with a 9x scope. Now I need to learn how to isolate the movements that are inevitably affecting my accuracy. Appreciate the insights from you and those before you.

Dan

[Moltke]

Dan, I asked earlier if your doing all this for 3 gun. The reason is if you are, then you're accurate enough with a 3/4 MOA group. No reason to work up a better load or spend much time on a bench. Still good but where you're going to get the most result from time spent training. Start shooting freestyle standing unsupported at 100 yards, or 50 yard headshots from the low ready, or positional shooting from barricades at longer ranges. Start learning how to get into a position fast, get stable fast and shoot quick.

[Graham Smith]

If you are working on load development and are trying to get the tightest groups possible then you need to eliminate every possible bit of movement in the rifle. That means sandbags, lead sled, braces, rests, etc - anything that will keep the rifle as steady as possible. One problem with this with an AR is that shooting like this makes it nearly impossible to hold the rifle the same as you would if you were just shooting it. And when it comes to a proper consistent cheek weld - it's tough.

As to the scope, 24x is way more power than you will ever need or want on that rifle. You would be well advised to swap that scope off for something in a more reasonable power range with more on the low end and less on the upper. 24x belongs on a heavy prone or bench rifle.

My suggestion is to forget about trying to shoot tiny groups and shoot the rifle as close to possible as you would normally. People get hung up on the idea of shooting tiny groups and forget that the rifle won't shoot the same under anything other than bench conditions.

[JeremyV]

I would like to share a few things I have learned recently. I shoot with some guys who shoot benchrest pellet rifles.... not your average air rifle guys. if they don't get 23 out of 25 pellets in the same hole at 25 yards they are upset. and I mean exactly through the same hole not just a one hole group.

I bought a rifle from one of them and can set primers up at 20 yards and hit them almost every time.

Anyway what I learned was if you cant see exactly where you are aiming then you cant aim in the exact same spot each time making your groups bigger so for load development you cant get a scope with too much power, also cheek weld does not affect accuracy if your parallax is set correctly. Try not to touch the gun anywhere except where you grip it to pull the trigger. This is true free recoil. if your gun is supported correctly you should be able to have it sitting there and not even look through the scope and pull the trigger without it moving at all. If you see a heartbeat in the scope then your touching something you don't need to, or your gun is not supported correctly. I shoot free recoil with my AR and the only thing to worry about is getting your face too close to the scope and it hitting you in the face.

[ParaJoe]

Maybe a little bit off, but try wearing a jacket or sweatshirt. Also, are you well hydrated?

[Jim Norman]

Heavy sand bags are a must. 6-10 power is adequate. Fine cross hairs are a requirement. you can't have your cross-hairs covering 1MOA and expect to make truly tight accurate group assessments.

As for breathing, WAY WAY back when I was shooting small-bore, we were taught a 10 count, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out to a 10 count, some where around 4-7 the shot would break. during that 3-7 second time frame you would add pressure ONLY when the sights were perfectly aligned. Doing this it is possible to shoot true doubles prone without a rest with a good .22 target rifle. True doubles in that the hole was as exactly one bullet diameter with two bullets placed.

It takes a LOT of practice. If you follow the advice in this thread you should find your groups more than adequate to judge your loads.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Jim Norman

[aquaticvisions]

My cross hairs stopped dancing when I turned off the disco music.