Shooting on the move in USPSA production. When?

[Just4FunLP]

I'm a C class shooter and I've been shooting USPSA production for about 9 months and am very interested in shooting on the move. I thought it would take a long time to get to the point where this would be an option, but just for kicks I decided to give it a try during practice. I was surprised at how well I did. I do bobble around quite a bit, but I can usually get at least an A and C on 5-10yd targets, and that's moving so fast that I'm doing everything I can to get the shots off. It's really fun.

At this time I only go to local matches with about 40 to 50 people and there is one master that totally blows me away when he literally runs through the course. It certainly seems like a great way to cut down your time.

I'd like to get opinions on this. Do you think it's worth a try in the local matches? It's not like I'm risking anything except my pride. Also, how do you determine when it's worth it. Points vs Speed, distances to targets, etc. Maybe it's just too soon for this...???

From what I can tell, it's best to go for full size uncovered targets that are on my left hand side. Also, I find it challenging when approaching a wall or barrel and run by before get a chance to shoot.

I know I could buy myself a timer and figure it all out myself, but I thought it would be easier and much more interesting to just ask you guys.

Thanks

[pjb45]

There is always a risk/reward issue to consider when deciding when to shoot on the move. It is a skill most Master class shooters have in their skill set.

Being a C class shooter I would question your need to focus on this skill rather than some fundamental skills IMO:

How is your draw time?

How about your transition time?

How long does it take you to set up a shot, call your shot and exit a shooting position?

Can you hit the A zone at twenty-five yards consistently?

If you are getting 90+% of your points on a given stage then you should experiment with acquiring more advance skills.

As a side note: I made B class fairly quickly but was stuck there because I have what Mike Seeklander calls 'training scars', I programmed myself with flaws in my technique in a quest for faster shooting. I spent a long time correcting those scars. Try reading Mike's book or viewing his CDs. They help establish a great base which leads to acquiring more advanced skills. BTW: At Nationals I did not see that many shoot on the move stages, it seemed to me most stages required fast entry and exist skills. Just my opinion.

[Sarge]

Pretty much generally quicker to shoot on the move whenever possible. It's just something you will have to try and see if your hits are there in a reasonable time.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Someone here last week said "carry a half filled glass of water" thru a course of fire and dry fire -

try not to spill the water -

That is supposed to teach us about how to walk quickly but smoothly.

I was just getting started learning to shoot 'n scoot couple years ago -

and it was working very well, but I slowed down the shooting and have

to start over.

But, it's def'n worth learning how - as you said - full sized targets up to

8 yards ... not sure about left only - I think I can handle both sides.

Def'n speeds things up, when I remember to do it.

Two weeks ago I shot a COF "on the move" (both left and right targets)

and when I reshot the same COF half hour later, I shaved two seconds off

because I was smoother re: the moving:)

[motosapiens]

In production, your opportunities for shooting on the move are less frequent, because you are often reloading on the move, but it's still a worthwhile skill to develop because it'll give you confidence to shoot coming into and leaving positions. Dryfire practice is a huge help, just because you get used to seeing the sights while moving. You really don't need much of a sight picture to get good hits on 5-7 yard targets, so I'd start there, and then see if you can find some opportunities to work some of them into your stages.

[Mikethor]

Ok I'm still a relatively new shooter who shoots ipsc single stack. My thoughts which are also based on my own experiences and watching others is that shooting on the move is definitely worth learning and practicing even if it means walking at a snails pass to start with and then the pace will increase with confidence and ability.

But you need to work on transitions, entry and exits etc as well as accuracy on the longer shots also.

As far as practicing it at local matches why not it's only your ego at stake and it's not life and death plus you will have fun as well.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Mikethor

[alma]

Its often ideal in Production to find nice places to stop, shoot 6 to 10 rounds, an start moving again to the next position with a reload along the way.

Almost nothing eats away the clock as much as stopping your momentum to set up for a shot and then having to get moving again. Depending on the target distance, positioning, and your ability to shoot on the move it is really nice to have the option to hit a few targets on the move on the way to your next position to minimize those time-consuming starts and stops.

Like so many other things Smoothness (not necessarily raw speed) is the critical element of doing this well.

It's important to blend your knees more and focuses on rolling your foot heel to toe to provide for a more staple platform. The suggestion to get a cup of water and walk around the yard trying not to spill it is a good one. You should also break out the timer and set up two shooting boxes with a few targets beyond the last box. Start in the far box and time ourself 1. shooting the targets from the far box and rushing forward to closest box, 2. Rushing forward to the closest box and shooting all targets from the closest distance, and 3. On start shoot the three targets on the move while approaching the closest box. See how each strategy compares. Also, for 3 try a relaxed walking pace we're you are comfortable getting your hits versus an all out run. You might be surprised how fast a relaxed shooting pace with consistent forward movement can be. Try changing target distance and positioning and seem how this affect your times. Shooting on the move will not always be the fastest so it's up to you to discover what works for you at your skill level.

[amish_rabbi]

Anything 15 yards or less, shoot it on the move whenever possible. Also practice you reloads so you can have them done in 1.5-2 steps

[ZackJones]

I shoot production and I'm trying to work on shooting on the move. My biggest problem is I must be bouncing around too much because when I try to shoot on the move I usually end up with an Alpha-Delta or Alpha-Mike. At my current skill level I think I'm better off looking for opportunities to shoot as many targets as possible from one location and then haul ass to the next shooting location.

[pjb45]

There was an article in FrontSight about shooting on the move.

I think Max M had a AMU YouTube video on it.

If you get a chance watch Chris Tilley, he gets very low in his stance(s) which facilitates smooth and accurate shooting.

[amish_rabbi]

I shoot production and I'm trying to work on shooting on the move. My biggest problem is I must be bouncing around too much because when I try to shoot on the move I usually end up with an Alpha-Delta or Alpha-Mike. At my current skill level I think I'm better off looking for opportunities to shoot as many targets as possible from one location and then haul ass to the next shooting location.

I disagree, i never see the point in training one way for x amount of time then going "ok, not going to do that anymore, now ill train myself to shoot this way" train from the start to shoot like the top level guys, if this means you are barely shuffling while you shoot on the move to start, thats fine, we all did that when we started. Find some videos or a coach, post some video here and you will get faster as you get better.

[ZackJones]

I disagree, i never see the point in training one way for x amount of time then going "ok, not going to do that anymore, now ill train myself to shoot this way" train from the start to shoot like the top level guys, if this means you are barely shuffling while you shoot on the move to start, thats fine, we all did that when we started. Find some videos or a coach, post some video here and you will get faster as you get better.

You make a good point. I do have some video from the Area 6 match so I'll post one to get some feedback.

[MarkCO]

There are really several answers to this question IMHO. You also have to look at who is answering, their skill level and what they shoot (or discount Open shooters and some of the Limited shooters).

I run an M&P9Pro in Production (A Class) and 3Gun (about 70 to 75% scores) and I shoot very differently in those two disciplines.

You must learn all the tools needed to be a quality shooter and that includes shooting on the move. However, in USPSA Production, you must shoot at least 90%, and more like 95% of the possible points to do maximize your score. I have shot slower with higher points and won my division. That rarely happens in Limited or Open. I sat and watched the super squad at Production Nationals and took a lot of notes. On the same stages, most of them shot more rounds with their feet planted that I did. They were breaking the shots as soon as they had both feet on the ground, transitioning fast and exploding out of the boxes. But, by the time they had taken 2 steps, they were reloaded and the gun was indexed on the next target, even if they could not yet see it. i shot about 7% less points than I had been, largely because I let the pressure move me when I should not have.

In USPSA Production, a D is basically a NPM and even a C is a penalty, you gots to shoot As. This is where knowing your metrics is paramount! Set up some drills and shoot them. Like 4 targets in a line at 10 yards. Start indexed on the left target and shoot 2 each at the three, then move the 10 feet to the right and shoot the last. Score it. Then do the same moving left. Then do the same but shooting on the move. Compare your hit factors and KNOW what you can do. I am not saying don't work on improving shooting on the move, but I think you will have higher hit factors at your level shooting planted and reloading while moving. Sure, there will be course where you have to shoot on the move, but not as many as one might think.

When I shoot 3Gun, I don't have many, if any, misses, but I do have some C and D hits (don't matter) since I am trying to shoot on the move as much as possible, which is maximizing the score for that style.

[BritinUSA]

Click this link and slide forward to the 1:50 mark which is where you can see Eric Grauffel shoot some of the field courses from last years Production Nationals...

[MarkCO]

Thanks Paul. Eric is arguably the best pistol shooter in the world, who shoots multiple divisions. He really only shot 2 targets in the whole match on the move. He had a backup step and an enter step on two close targets that were not really on the move, so at the most 4. There were plenty of targets in the 3-8 yards range that he could have shot moving, but choose not to risk points. He beat the US Nationals Champion by a little more than 5% to win the match.

Certainly some of my answer is based on watching Eric shoot and talking to him after he had shot some of the stages. Super nice guy too!

[mrpredictable]

Click this link and slide forward to the 1:50 mark which is where you can see Eric Grauffel shoot some of the field courses from last years Production Nationals...

Thanks for the link. Very interesting videos.

Would shooting on the move be a more important skill for multigun?

[MarkCO]

Having the ability to shoot on the move is a good thing to have for USPSA production. It is just a little bit more important in Limited and Open, and almost mandatory in 3Gun/MG.

[pjb45]

I think there is a post on the forum somewhere which talks about Ben Stoeger's training program.

I believe on the comments was it was a linear approach. Advanced skills start with a strong foundation of basic skills. I agree with Mark even if he is from CO:-)

I was at Nationals in Quincy one year, when Lizard (a well-known individual on the CO shooting scene) won his Production Class by shooting for points not speed.

[Hi-Power Jack]

There were targets in the 3-8 yards range that he could have shot moving, but choose not to risk points. He beat the US Nationals Champion by a little more than 5% to win the match.

Thanks for sharing that observation - fascinating - challenges what I've come to believe is FACT.

Something to seriously think about.

[alma]

I was at Nationals in Quincy one year, when Lizard (a well-known individual on the CO shooting scene) won his Production Class by shooting for points not speed even though he was favoring points.

What was his class? Guessing either way he would have been shooting for points and speed. I was the 2003 USPSA National Production Champion in C class but that doesn't mean that I know what I am talking about or that my strategies reign supreme. Edited April 22, 2014 by alma

[Nimitz]

- Shooting on the move is much harder than it appears under match conditions

-- There are a lot less times when shooting on the move makes sense than most shooters realize

- Unless you can guarantee 2 alphas or first hit/knockdown on steel it is usually not a better idea to shoot on the move

- Most likely There are plenty of other places which are costing you a lot more time than that which you could makeup for by shooting on the move

- You said you can usually get and A/C on ten yard or closer targets shooting on the move ... At that distance, for open targets, you should be able to shoot 2 alphas 100% of the time so if you are dropping points on easy targets because you are moving this is not the path to greatness

- Can you shoot a typical classifer (stand and shoot) at the 75% or better level on command? If you can't stand and shoot accuractly at spped what makes you think moving and shooting will work out better? moving is most likely not your problem

- Does shooting on the move look cool and get all those shooting groupies attention .... Yep

[Just4FunLP]

Excellent comments everyone. I'm reading every word, but don't have time for a long reply. Your right, I definitely need to be working on fundamentals. I'll keep dinkin around with it some in practice, and if a couple of targets come along that just scream "shoot on the move" I'll give it a try.

And yes, it looks really cool on the videos, as long as they don't show a close up of the targets when your done.

Thanks

Edited April 23, 2014 by Just4FunLP

[Nik Habicht]

I shoot production and I'm trying to work on shooting on the move. My biggest problem is I must be bouncing around too much because when I try to shoot on the move I usually end up with an Alpha-Delta or Alpha-Mike. At my current skill level I think I'm better off looking for opportunities to shoot as many targets as possible from one location and then haul ass to the next shooting location.

Drills help. Start with an El Presidente setup at five yards. Draw and shoot on the move while shuffling backwards.....

Then start at the ten and shuffle straight forwards.....

Spend a couple of hundred rounds and see what you can learn from that.....

Then start moving so the targets are on your right/left at 5 yards.....

Later at 10 yards, 15, and so on.....

[Nik Habicht]

Unlike Nimitz, I think it's a skill that's useful often -- though not always in the ways we think of it. Sometimes I'll drive hard into a port, engage the toughest target first, and then shoot the others as I'm already retreating out -- hence the shuffling backward drill.....

Other times there'll be one weird target between two positions, and I can slow my walk as I start to see it, and shoot it without really planting......

Knowing how doesn't teach you when to deploy the skill.....

Experience will....

[Nik Habicht]

Like 4 targets in a line at 10 yards. Start indexed on the left target and shoot 2 each at the three, then move the 10 feet to the right and shoot the last. Score it. Then do the same moving left. Then do the same but shooting on the move. Compare your hit factors and KNOW what you can do. I am not saying don't work on improving shooting on the move, but I think you will have higher hit factors at your level shooting planted and reloading while moving. Sure, there will be course where you have to shoot on the move, but not as many as one might think.

I agree with some of what Mark's saying in general terms about shooting on the move. That said his example above is one situation that I rarely shoot on the move in a match unless the targets are very close. At distance, planting and getting the points yields a better hit factor.....

If they're close and I have to cover the ten yards to get to the next position anyway, I might even shoot the first three on the move, reload, and take the next one on the move -- it depends a bit on what came before, and what's left after, because with only ten round mags, ammo management plays a factor....