DQing a New Shooter...What would you do?

[bikerburgess]

If they break a safety rule they earn the dq. If that chases them off then that's too bad but still not a reason to not enforce the rules. If the MD wants to run a match similar to a USPSA match but with different safety rules and enforcement then they are free to do that just don't call it a USPSA match.

Ps I was dqed at my first match and I understood what I did and learned my lesson and went to the next match I could.

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[ac4wordplay]

[snip]

Ps I was dqed at my first match and I understood what I did and learned my lesson and went to the next match I could.

[snip]

And he went on to become a successful and respected MD and Section board member.

[motosapiens]

One thing I have NOT been covering in our new shooter briefing is a dropped gun. As a result, in this situation I would not object to the MD overruling a dq. I know under the rules it's the same, but to me it's fundamentally different than dropping a loaded gun during the COF, so maybe that makes me a democrat or something (lol).

I'm going to have to add this in to our new shooter briefing so that people won't have an excuse.

the gun was dropped during the COF

I never said it wasn't.

Then what does this mean? I know under the rules it's the same, but to me it's fundamentally different than dropping a loaded gun during the COF

A dropped gun is a dropped gun. We can't take it upon ourselves to differentiate between loaded or unloaded. Agreed, dropping an empty gun is safer than dropping a loaded gun but the end result should always be the same.

It means exactly what it says. I'm not sure I understand your confusion.

Yes, a dropped gun is a dropped gun, and under the rules we can't take it upon ourselves to differentiate (I pretty much said that, did you see), but an unloaded dropped gun after unload and show clear is fundamentally different from a loaded dropped gun during the COF before unload and show clear.

[NoSteel]

We're going to give you that touchdown even though you were out of bounds because your new....... Just doesn't work does it??????

[lawboy]

I would rather see the sport die because new shooters who do not know the rules don't come back after disqualifying themselves with safety violations, rather than see the sport survive by filling it with the kind of people who will only return for another match if they are allowed to violate the safety rules others know and abide by. I would not care to share a park bench with such people, much less shoot gun with them.

[lneel]

The MD was wrong. USPSA is a safety first organization and it has served them well. If we relax such to the point that dropping a gun during a COF is acceptable we are opening the door to having bad things happen. New shooter or not, it is a DQ, period. Yes, it sucks but the shooter will most likely come back knowing better from a hard lesson.

Lee

[Gary Stevens]

I have often wondered where the MD or the RM for that matter have the authority to overrule a DQ I issued. Unless the overturning of the DQ is supported by the rules, where does that power come from?

An arbitration committee can overturn a DQ, no problem.

The person who called the DQ saw the infraction, he/she made the call. At that point he/she will have to defend their actions before an arbitration committee potentially.

IMO, others need to stay out of that process.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Gary Stevens

[TH3180]

I would rather see the sport die because new shooters who do not know the rules don't come back after disqualifying themselves with safety violations, rather than see the sport survive by filling it with the kind of people who will only return for another match if they are allowed to violate the safety rules others know and abide by. I would not care to share a park bench with such people, much less shoot gun with them.

This!!

[motosapiens]

I have often wondered where the MD or the RM for that matter have the authority to overrule a DQ I issued. Unless the overturning of the DQ is supported by the rules, where does that power come from?

I think 11.1.3

Appeals – the Range Officer makes decisions initially. If the appellant

disagrees with a decision, the Chief Range Officer for the stage or area

in question should be asked to rule. If a disagreement still exists, the

Range Master must be asked to rule.

[Sarge]

The RM should rule that it goes to Arb if the Stage staff can't come to a conclusion. I was taught the RM can't overturn a call. After all, he didn't see what happened.

[EkuJustice]

While most would give the new shooter a break on some stuff safety rules are one that should never be given a break at all. Ignoring safety is never a good thing. What happens when he drops it 2 stages later and it goes off when he shouldn't have been shooting

[motosapiens]

The RM should rule that it goes to Arb if the Stage staff can't come to a conclusion. I was taught the RM can't overturn a call. After all, he didn't see what happened.

Is that what the rulebook says? I hate to be a rules nazi, but.......

[BillChunn]

MD or Asst. MD overrules me as the RO in violation of the safety rules in the USPSA rulebook:

Me (to the MD): Can you please extend one of your hands, palm up.

MD (who would have a quizzical look on his face) extends a hand.

Me Placing the timer in his hand: 'Bye....

Safety... First... Last... ALWAYS!!!

There was a competitor that shot themselves on our club range (key word was). It's not pretty. It ended the match. The individual was very lucky that there were trained medical personnel available that immediately took charge of the situation until EMS arrived to transport him to the hospital.

If that means I'm a range Nazi, then so be it. If that's what it takes to send everybody home from my match with the same number of holes as when they arrived, then so be it.

Look at it this way. The RO is supposed to be within an arm's length of the shooter during the COF. Guess who is in the "danger zone" when a safety violation occurs....

BC

Edited March 20, 2014 by BillChunn

[ben b.]

The MD was wrong and didn't follow the rules, and cut the new guy a break, against the rules. OK, so what to do in the situation? I'd go over the rulebook with the MD & asst MD at that point, if possible, and if not go over the rule book with them after the match and show them how they were wrong to make that call. If they are reasonable, they will see it and agree. If they are unreasonable and refuse to acknowledge that and refuse to agree not to make that mistake again, only then would I start getting stinky about refusing to RO & notifying the AD. It is better to try to lead people toward the light then shutdown and get negative. Lord knows, I've been unaware of the rules or made a mistake a few times.

I had a similar situation this weekend as an RO at IDPA; the shooter shot a popper repeatedly with good hits until it went down. On reset, I found that the popper was clearly set too heavily. I ruled that the time stood. The shooter (who is a friend of mine) wanted a reshoot and was irritated with me, The brand-new IDPA MD came in and granted a reshoot with the "just a club match" statement. Reshoot given per MD instructions. After the match, we chrono'd and the .38 Spcl made 118 PF, which is well above the minimum of 105 PF. We later went over the relevant rules, which are similar to USPSA with both MD & shooter, and they both agreed the time should have stood. No one is pissed off, 2 people more aware of the game rules.

[BillChunn]

It is better to try to lead people toward the light then shutdown and get negative. Lord knows, I've been unaware of the rules or made a mistake a few times.

Please tell me what you are going to tell the widow and her children when that same shooter that you "lead toward the light" drops his gun again, it goes off and kills the RO?

I've seen more then enough blood on the range and far too many "close calls" when bullets impacted the ground a few inches from the shooter's foot. Maybe you haven't.

I would rather see the sport die because new shooters who do not know the rules don't come back after disqualifying themselves with safety violations, rather than see the sport survive by filling it with the kind of people who will only return for another match if they are allowed to violate the safety rules others know and abide by. I would not care to share a park bench with such people, much less shoot gun with them.

Amen.

Those of you that want to cut the new shooter some slack obviously have not had a competitor's femoral artery severed by a bullet with them lying on the ground, white as a sheet and in fear that they are going to bleed to death. It changes your outlook on safety violations.

BC

Edited March 20, 2014 by BillChunn

[Hi-Power Jack]

he drew his gun, and dropped it. I said Stop but he still got it.

he was DQ'd. I don't think he has been back.

If we adhere precisely to every rule, we're going to lose shooters.

I vote for a little leeway for new shooters.

I've seen Masters get away with breaking rules - the new guys need the break

if we want to see them again.

[Cy Soto]

he drew his gun, and dropped it. I said Stop but he still got it.

he was DQ'd. I don't think he has been back.

If we adhere precisely to every rule, we're going to lose shooters.

I vote for a little leeway for new shooters.

I've seen Masters get away with breaking rules - the new guys need the break

if we want to see them again.

In a situation like the one described by the OP, you will always lose shooters. If you allow the DQ to stand, there is a chance that the new shooter won't be back. If the MD overturns the DQ (choosing to ignore the rulebook), there is an even better chance that the more seasoned shooters who saw it happen will not return.

We may not always agree with the rules (the Lord knows that I have rolled my eyes at more than one ruling made by Amidon) but they are in place for a reason.

[Gary Stevens]

Confession time up front, there is a lot I don't know. Now with that out of the way, in my approximately 20 years of being a Range Master I was never told that 11.1.3 applied to anything other than scoring disputes. Is it a double, does it touch the line, is it a procedural per shot fired or only one, etc.

I agree with Bill that if anyone other than an Arbitration Committee overrules a DQ I have made, I will immediately leave the range.

To overrule a range officer who made a DQ call (assuming it is backed up by the rules) is to say I don't trust your judgment, or you are not truthful in what you say you observed. Either way, I won't work under those circumstances.

[motosapiens]

I agree with Bill that if anyone other than an Arbitration Committee overrules a DQ I have made, I will immediately leave the range.

That's fine. It'll take a lot more than that for me to take my ball and go home, but I can't blame someone for not participating if they feel safety is not taken seriously enough.

Edited March 20, 2014 by motosapiens

[ben b.]

It is better to try to lead people toward the light then shutdown and get negative. Lord knows, I've been unaware of the rules or made a mistake a few times.

Please tell me what you are going to tell the widow and her children when that same shooter that you "lead toward the light" drops his gun again, it goes off and kills the RO?

I've seen more then enough blood on the range and far too many "close calls" when bullets impacted the ground a few inches from the shooter's foot. Maybe you haven't.

I think you should re-read my post and reduce the drama. The MD was wrong.

The question is what to do as the RO? Start screaming that "I could have been killed, you haven't seen what I have seen?"

[Sarge]

It is better to try to lead people toward the light then shutdown and get negative. Lord knows, I've been unaware of the rules or made a mistake a few times.

Please tell me what you are going to tell the widow and her children when that same shooter that you "lead toward the light" drops his gun again, it goes off and kills the RO?

I've seen more then enough blood on the range and far too many "close calls" when bullets impacted the ground a few inches from the shooter's foot. Maybe you haven't.

I think you should re-read my post and reduce the drama. The MD was wrong.

The question is what to do as the RO? Start screaming that "I could have been killed, you haven't seen what I have seen?"

Nope. The RO simply says, "you are disqualified per rule......" No drama at all that way.

[JAFO]

It is better to try to lead people toward the light then shutdown and get negative. Lord knows, I've been unaware of the rules or made a mistake a few times.

Please tell me what you are going to tell the widow and her children when that same shooter that you "lead toward the light" drops his gun again, it goes off and kills the RO?

I've seen more then enough blood on the range and far too many "close calls" when bullets impacted the ground a few inches from the shooter's foot. Maybe you haven't.

I think he was trying to say it's better to try to lead the MD/RM (who overturned the call) toward the light rather than walk away from any further matches at that club. He agreed that cutting the shooter slack was the wrong call.

[ben b.]

It is better to try to lead people toward the light then shutdown and get negative. Lord knows, I've been unaware of the rules or made a mistake a few times.

Please tell me what you are going to tell the widow and her children when that same shooter that you "lead toward the light" drops his gun again, it goes off and kills the RO?

I've seen more then enough blood on the range and far too many "close calls" when bullets impacted the ground a few inches from the shooter's foot. Maybe you haven't.

I think he was trying to say it's better to try to lead the MD/RM (who overturned the call) toward the light rather than walk away from any further matches at that club. He agreed that cutting the shooter slack was the wrong call.

Yes, agreed. And in fact, that is exactly what I did say.

[ttownracer]

Only time I have ever seen my minor son drop a gun just happened to be at a national championship match. He was heartbroken, but he respects the rules and why it is a safety issue. I would suggest a new shooter who drops a gun and doesn't return because of a DQ was likely not going to stick around regardless of the circumstances. DQ was right call.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Xhris]

It is better to try to lead people toward the light then shutdown and get negative. Lord knows, I've been unaware of the rules or made a mistake a few times.

Please tell me what you are going to tell the widow and her children when that same shooter that you "lead toward the light" drops his gun again, it goes off and kills the RO?

I've seen more then enough blood on the range and far too many "close calls" when bullets impacted the ground a few inches from the shooter's foot. Maybe you haven't.

I would rather see the sport die because new shooters who do not know the rules don't come back after disqualifying themselves with safety violations, rather than see the sport survive by filling it with the kind of people who will only return for another match if they are allowed to violate the safety rules others know and abide by. I would not care to share a park bench with such people, much less shoot gun with them.

Amen.

Those of you that want to cut the new shooter some slack obviously have not had a competitor's femoral artery severed by a bullet with them lying on the ground, white as a sheet and in fear that they are going to bleed to death. It changes your outlook on safety violations.

BC

So I am going to read between the lines a little here... This situation would NEVER happen if you were the RO, because you would do everything in your powers, including tackling the shooter before you would let him pick up the gun. And there is NO way that if the RO put in every effort he could that a shooter would ever be able to pickup the gun. It's simply not possible.

Oddly enough, I would be fine with an RO that ended up in a pile on the ground with the shooter to keep him safe. What I am not OK with is a RO who did nothing to stop a dangerous situation, then DQd someone because they did something against the rules.