Possible extra primer in 9mm round

[macedonia]

I just loaded 200 rounds of 9mm on a RL550. Load data is Ranier 115gr RN over 4.4gr of Titegroup at 1.135 COAL. have the machine setup with the empty case bin.

After loading I realized that I was missing one primer. Without going into the scenario in detail the missing primer may have fallen into the empty case bin. If so then the primer may be in one of the loaded rounds. This means in one round I may have two primers: the seated one and a loose one.

Question: if shot, will this cause dangerously high pressure?

Thanks for any help on this one. I'm thinking I may need to dissemble the rounds but thought I would I ask on this forum first.

[yoshidaex]

Do you mean one primer on top the other?

Or a primer inside a completed round?

[macedonia]

A primer inside the loaded round.

[Guy Neill]

it is potentially very bad. Primers are energetic devices and the added energy lighting off the powder not already buring could cause a significant increase in presure rise. Also, the primer and anvil are taking up internal volume that will also serve to increase pressure.

You may try weighing teh cartridges and see how consistent the weights - and looking for a one heavier. With mixed cases this may not work as well as same make cases, but it is worth looking at. Weigh some indivifual priemrs to know how much weight a primer may add.

Good luck.

Guy

[ZackJones]

Man that sucks!

Just to add what Guy suggested before weighing sort by headstamp. Hopefully brass with the same headstamp will have a similar weight and you'll be able to find the one that weighs a little higher than the rest. I would also do the following: (1) search around the press for a loose primer. Perhaps it fell somehow and is sitting on the floor (2) check the spent primer cup to see if it some how ended up in there. Good luck finding it!

[Gabe Athouse]

How in the world could you figure out there was an unaccounted for primer?

I know I wouldn't sweat it. Usually debri will get hung up by the decapping pin and you find it then if theres anything inside a case.

Shoot the ammo. It'll be fine.

[macedonia]

Thanks very much for replying so quickly and for all the ideas. I did very carefully check my load bench but did not find the primer there and it was not in the spent primer cup. I also checked the floor with a flashlight and even moved the bench and checked there. I did find one primer under the bench (at the rear of the bench) but I simply can't be sure that that's it because of the way I lost it and all the loading I've done recently.

Here's how I lost the primer: While loading, the area around the shell plate became dirty particularly at station one, so I removed the primer (the one on top of the seater) and placed it on the bench (to the right of the press). I then cleaned the shell plate. Next, I picked up the primer to place it back on station one but in doing so bumped the completed cartridge bin with my hand causing me to drop the primer. Thinking that the primer was in the bin, I decided to proceed and later retrieve the primer upon finishing the next few rounds. Unfortunately, the primer was not in the competed cartridge bin. After looking everywhere else for the primer, I realized that it could have fallen into the empty brass bin (and into a case which was then loaded) due to the empty case bin's proximity to the completed cartridge bin ( I use the mount made for the RL550). I've made some mistakes with dropping primers but never this one.

Since this could be a dangerous situation, I think the only safe option at this point is to weigh the cases sorted by headstamp in an attempt to find the primer. And I'm going to change my loading procedure to eliminate this potential problem from re-occurring. I'll report back when I get this resolved.

[outerlimits]

It's only 9mm-pull 'em or chuck 'em.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Ranier 115gr RN over 4.4gr of Titegroup at 1.135 COAL.

I was missing one primer.

That sounds like a fairly mild load (4.4 TG with 115 gr) and the

OAL is pretty long (1.135"), so I'd say it's pretty safe even

with a primer in it??

And, it seems the odds of that one single primer falling into

an empty cartridge case, and you not noticing it during reloading

seems awfully small to me. Don't think I'd miss it on my Square Deal.

So, unless I'm wrong and that is a hot load, or the case is almost

full of powder, I'd shoot them as practice rounds - not in a match.

But, I'm not positive about that - I'd defer to some of the experts

on the subject.

[twodownzero]

I would not worry about it at all.

[Sarge]

Before I went to case feeders etc I always glanced into the cases and quickly flipped them with a flick of the wrist before sliding them onto the plate. I did that to make sure there was no debris inside

[sk330lc]

Here in southeast Ohio we have a Ladybug problem. we have them by the millions and you never know where you'll find them. I notice one day while loading 38spl that their were a few lady bugs in the brass I was loading. I now dump every case and visually check it before loading. I also have our house sprayed every fall to help rid us of most of the darn pesky bugs.

[njl]

Here's a tip that would have avoided your issue. Early on in my reloading experience, I had a primer from a decapped case fall into the empty case bin. Some time later, while decapping another case, the decapping pin found that wild primer and bent. Since then, when picking up brass from the empty bin, I always turn the empty case upside down on its way from the empty case bin to station 1, so if there was anything in it, it'll fall out. It's also handy for quickly scanning for SP .45 brass that missed getting segregated from LP brass.

Also, for your missing live primer, assuming your 550 is on a strong mount and has both the finished and empty bins, look in the crevasse between the strong mount and bins bracket. I've got several dead ones in there on mine that I just haven't bothered fishing out.

[Steve RA]

Since, as pointed out above, it's a reasonably light load, I wouldn't sweat it. If it was a 9 major load it would be different. However, you need to do whatever you think will be best for you.

[Sarge]

You might get DQ'ed!

5.5.6 Ammunition must not discharge more than one bullet or other scoring

projectile from a single round.

[macedonia]

Before I went to case feeders etc I always glanced into the cases and quickly flipped them with a flick of the wrist before sliding them onto the plate. I did that to make sure there was no debris inside

Great idea, thanks!

[MrVvrroomm]

Rack it in, let 'er fly

[noylj]

Think of it this way: If you fire a squib (no powder), the bullet will stick about ½-1" down the barrel. If you add 0.5gn of powder (at least, any powder that will burn a 0.5gn load and not simply melt like 296/H110), the bullet will eject from the barrel and, almost alway, hit a 25 yard target (maybe low, but hit it will). Thus, a primer is less than the equivalent of 0.5gn of powder. That is not enough to go from even a max load to over proof load.

Now, some people can actually hear the powder in the case when they shake the round. If you are one, maybe you can hear the primer?

[Sarge]

Think of it this way: If you fire a squib (no powder), the bullet will stick about ½-1" down the barrel. If you add 0.5gn of powder (at least, any powder that will burn a 0.5gn load and not simply melt like 296/H110), the bullet will eject from the barrel and, almost alway, hit a 25 yard target (maybe low, but hit it will). Thus, a primer is less than the equivalent of 0.5gn of powder. That is not enough to go from even a max load to over proof load.

Now, some people can actually hear the powder in the case when they shake the round. If you are one, maybe you can hear the primer?

The primer detonation was never a factor to me. It was the space the primer takes up that should increase the pressure of the load. But like we said it is a pretty minor load so it should be no problem.

[macedonia]

Here's a tip that would have avoided your issue. Early on in my reloading experience, I had a primer from a decapped case fall into the empty case bin. Some time later, while decapping another case, the decapping pin found that wild primer and bent. Since then, when picking up brass from the empty bin, I always turn the empty case upside down on its way from the empty case bin to station 1, so if there was anything in it, it'll fall out. It's also handy for quickly scanning for SP .45 brass that missed getting segregated from LP brass.

Also, for your missing live primer, assuming your 550 is on a strong mount and has both the finished and empty bins, look in the crevasse between the strong mount and bins bracket. I've got several dead ones in there on mine that I just haven't bothered fishing out.

Thanks. I do have the strong mount and checked there but only found three or four spent primers.

[macedonia]

Think of it this way: If you fire a squib (no powder), the bullet will stick about ½-1" down the barrel. If you add 0.5gn of powder (at least, any powder that will burn a 0.5gn load and not simply melt like 296/H110), the bullet will eject from the barrel and, almost alway, hit a 25 yard target (maybe low, but hit it will). Thus, a primer is less than the equivalent of 0.5gn of powder. That is not enough to go from even a max load to over proof load.

Now, some people can actually hear the powder in the case when they shake the round. If you are one, maybe you can hear the primer?

The primer detonation was never a factor to me. It was the space the primer takes up that should increase the pressure of the load. But like we said it is a pretty minor load so it should be no problem.

The Speer manual lists a 115 gr load range from 41. to 4.5 gr of Titegroup and a COAL of 1.135 but the Hodgdon load data shows a range of 4.5 to 4.8 gr and a COAL of 1.125. To the point of space left in the round, a double charge of 4.4 gr will not overflow but is obvious - lots of space. As a side note, I did test 4.1 gr of Titegroup yesterday and it cycles both a CZ 75b, a Glock 34 and 19 and does shoot a bit softer.

In any event, before understanding that the 4.4 gr was a light load, I did weigh the completed rounds by headstamp. By headstamp the rounds were within about +/- 0.5 gr. A WSP primer weighs 3.2gr. So if there was a loose primer in the case it would have found it. So I'm shooting them.

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and help.

[Sarge]

That's great news! Now all you have to worry about is blowing up your vacuum cleaner someday!

[Grump]

All this talk and no mention that a small primer weights about 5 grains?

Fired large ones weight about the same.

Do the Archimedes thing for brass density and you'll have the approximate volume displaced. Since that's important on the gas phase, don't worry about the powder not getting under the anvil.

Then do the math with your bullet diameter's area to see how much "deeper" the bullet would have to seat to equal the volume of that primer.

My prediction is that it would be no more than a 4,000 PSI increase.

Then add the effect of the live charge in the primer. Look up the Joules of energy contained in that little pellet and add it to the energy of the powder column. If it adds less than 10%, probably no problem.

Since my 9mm is substantially overbuilt with quite a safety margin, I'd shoot it. You don't have to.

How many rounds in that bucket of suspects?

[Russellhjoy]

I dont see how a primer would get in the case anyways, unless it somehow happened after depriming. I would think the sizing die would let you know, ha

[JeffWard]

How in the world could you figure out there was an unaccounted for primer?

I know I wouldn't sweat it. Usually debri will get hung up by the decapping pin and you find it then if theres anything inside a case.

Shoot the ammo. It'll be fine.

THIS... During the de-prime cycle, you'd "find" the extra primer inside the case I'd guess.

Jeff