Classifiers and 6/8 shot

[BHill]

This may well have been discussed but I haven't found much by searching. With the eight shooters coming online in February will there be any altering of the classifiers/HHF that favor the eight shot? Four of the nine CM13 series heavily favor the eight shooters but I would imagine it would be more of a headache to make everything "fair" than it would ever be worth.

Not complaining but curious as it is an interesting twist that revolvers shooters would have to consider prior to signing in for a match if both are an option. Even more interesting would be a match that favored six shooters but the classifier did not or vise versa. Your thoughts?

Thanks

BHill

[Flexmoney]

Good timing. I was just coming here to start a thread on this.

We are looking at retiring the classifiers that have a disparity with regard to 6 and 8 rounds.

I think we have just over 80 classifiers right now. When I started this game (year 2000?), we had around 66 (IIRC). We are likely looking at having to remove 20 or so before the division change takes place. That would leave us with 60 or so for now...which is workable. Perhaps a second stage of this would be to add classifiers back. But, for now we need to look at pulling ones that are clearly impacted by the division change. (Like a 7 round stage shot from Box A)

I've got my list, and a few others have compiled similar lists. Post your list, let me know what you see so that we can compare. Which classifiers need to go?

Kyle F.

Area 5 Director

Classification Committee

[MWP]

Would it make more sense to eliminate the classifiers that benefit one or the other, of just modify them to be equal? Can't fire more than 6 without a reload? Just treat it the same as 8 shooters used to be treated in revolver?

[ZackJones]

Here's my list of classifiers I'd recommend be removed/modified:

99-41 - Works for Me

99-57 - Bookout's Boogie

03-03 - Take 'em Down

03-04 - 3-V

03-08 - Madness

03-09 - On The Move

06-01 - Big Barricade

06-02 - Big Barricade II

06-04 - Fluffy's Revenge 1

06-05 - Fluffy's Revenge 2

09-02 - Diamond Cutter

09-04 - Pucker Factor

09-13 - Table Stakes

13-02 - Down The Middle

13-05 - Tick-Tock

13-07 - Double Deal 2

13-09 - Window Pain

Edited to add 06-02

Edited January 9, 2014 by ZackJones

[71Commander]

If anyone is 86'd, it has to be 03-08. It should be at the top of the list.

http://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/03-08.gif

[Chuck Anderson]

Would it make more sense to eliminate the classifiers that benefit one or the other, of just modify them to be equal? Can't fire more than 6 without a reload? Just treat it the same as 8 shooters used to be treated in revolver?

That wouldn't make it equal. The 8shooter is shooting minor to gain a two round advantage over the six shooter. If that goes away he's at a disadvantage shooting minor. We talked about it and just couldn't come up with a good way to change them without screwing up hit factors etc. Not to say that similar versions won't appear at major events and become classifiers again soon.

[ChrisC]

I thought the minor power fator was the great equalizer? There will be classifers that plqy to the 6 shot and those that will benefit the 8. If future classifiers designs keep and equal number of classifers that do one or the other I dont see why we would change anything.

[71Commander]

I thought the minor power fator was the great equalizer? There will be classifers that plqy to the 6 shot and those that will benefit the 8. If future classifiers designs keep and equal number of classifers that do one or the other I dont see why we would change anything.

In my example above, the stage is more of a reloading stage as opposed to a shooting stage.

Shoot 6, reload. Shoot 1 reload. Shoot 6 reload. Shoot 1

An 8 shot would have a big advantage.

Edited January 9, 2014 by 71Commander

[ChrisC]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

[71Commander]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

Not really. Shooting minor, after the first shot you would be able to get all subsequent shots off faster.

[BHill]

Are you saying the 6 shot would have the advantage because of a potentially slightly faster reload? That compared to no reload on an eight shot only classifier would be worlds apart.

I think the six shots reload advantage would be chewed up in splits but hey I have been wrong before.

Edit: 71commander beat me to it.

Edited January 9, 2014 by BHill

[Racinready300ex]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

I don't see how they can really make this work out. There seems to be a potentail flaw with anyway you look at it.

[Racinready300ex]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

Not really. Shooting minor, after the first shot you would be able to get all subsequent shots off faster.

I don't know, a 6 shot 45 is faster and easier to reload, and you get major scoring. I don't think that will be offset by faster splits on a 12 shot stage.

[BHill]

I think as long as you shoot several classifiers then the highs and lows will work themselves out. The classifiers like "down the middle" will have very high hit factors that six shooters won't be able to touch but that will only effect those with very few classifiers on record. Same as tanking one.

[alecmc]

I dont buy the " 6 shots reload faster then 8 shot " argument. - Buy some hearthco clips, and practice reloading the snot out of them. I dont see too much of a difference in my 8 shot vs 6 shot reloading.

[Bubber]

Classifiers, at this time have no real use. I have yet to see anything that has us shooting anything but heads up in the matches. Leave the advantage for either in the mix. Let it run its's course then look at it then make changes that will help the Division. But one would have to start from scratch after any changes are made. Erase all class standing and refigure with the new hit factors.

[BHill]

I dont buy the " 6 shots reload faster then 8 shot " argument. - Buy some hearthco clips, and practice reloading the snot out of them. I dont see too much of a difference in my 8 shot vs 6 shot reloading.

You were who I was thinking of when I said the splits would eat up any advantage. Adds up to maybe .18 seconds for the difference in reload or splits roughly on an El Pres.

[Racinready300ex]

I dont buy the " 6 shots reload faster then 8 shot " argument. - Buy some hearthco clips, and practice reloading the snot out of them. I dont see too much of a difference in my 8 shot vs 6 shot reloading.

So as long as you use $8 moons, with short colts and practice a lot more you can reload just as fast as a 6 shot? I think that means the 6 shot is easier to load fast. Not everyone is going to do all that. So if may be safe to say reloads are even for A and up, C and D's maybe not? Just a guess, we wont really know until people start shooting them.

Certainly the 8 shot stages are way stacked and will need to go. 6 shot stages will just have to work.

[alecmc]

I dont buy the " 6 shots reload faster then 8 shot " argument. - Buy some hearthco clips, and practice reloading the snot out of them. I dont see too much of a difference in my 8 shot vs 6 shot reloading.

So as long as you use $8 moons, with short colts and practice a lot more you can reload just as fast as a 6 shot? I think that means the 6 shot is easier to load fast. Not everyone is going to do all that. So if may be safe to say reloads are even for A and up, C and D's maybe not? Just a guess, we wont really know until people start shooting them.

Certainly the 8 shot stages are way stacked and will need to go. 6 shot stages will just have to work.

Actually, I've been using 38 short colts and the .025" moonclips from revolver supply.com , they arent as stiff as the hearthcos , but a fraction of the cost, and I dont feel bad when people stomp on them.

I did an experiment mixing in some random revolver supply clips , with my hearthcos during a match and I couldnt tell what was what.

I only have a handful of hearthcos, I'll pull them out for a big match, but I'm ussually always using the cheap stuff.

and I was assuming we were talking about using short colts, But it's not like they are completely unobtainable, for 150 bucks or so you can buy 1000 new starline cases that should last you half a life time.

even with a light chamfer on my 8 shot , they clips slide right in.

Edited January 9, 2014 by alecmc

[ChrisC]

So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule?

I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue.

[alecmc]

So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule?

I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue.

Well, I dont think we are getting away from the new 8 minor rule change, it passed, it's coming into place in less then a month, and that is that.

But saying that this classifier issue wouldnt cause problems I dont agree with.

all the classifiers with a straight 8 shots is going to dominate over the 6 shots, major or minor aside, when you shoot it with your 627 you are going to be 1.5-3 seconds faster on your overall time ( depending on how quick you reload ) .. There is just no overlooking that, it's going to distort the hitfactor and you'll have a bunch of over night grand masters in revolver division who go out , know which classifiers to shoot , and score 100%.

[Shadow]

Here's my list of classifiers I'd recommend be removed/modified:

99-41 - Works for Me

99-57 - Bookout's Boogie

03-03 - Take 'em Down

03-04 - 3-V

03-08 - Madness

03-09 - On The Move

06-01 - Big Barricade

06-04 - Fluffy's Revenge 1

06-05 - Fluffy's Revenge 2

09-02 - Diamond Cutter

09-04 - Pucker Factor

09-13 - Table Stakes

13-02 - Down The Middle

13-05 - Tick-Tock

13-07 - Double Deal 2

13-09 - Window Pain

Add 06-02, Big Barricade II to this list.

[Ssanders224]

So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule?

I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue.

+1

Give it some time. USPSA is going to start yanking classifiers because they MIGHT affect a TINY minority of the USPSA membership? Really?

After this year, if all Revolver shooters are M & GM, then start fixing things. But we all know that won't happen.

[Racinready300ex]

So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule?

I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue.

+1

Give it some time. USPSA is going to start yanking classifiers because they MIGHT affect a TINY minority of the USPSA membership? Really?

After this year, if all Revolver shooters are M & GM, then start fixing things. But we all know that won't happen.

Some of them are just to lopsided. One of the new ones is 8 shots reload 8 shots for example. With a 6 shot gun it will be 6 reload, 2 reload, 6 reload, 2. If the HF is based on a 6 shot time, anyone with a 8 shot gun will 100% it. If we are going to leave everything alone, then we should probably just dump the whole classification system for the revolver division and make it heads up.

[BHill]

It may just be simplest to set the HHF for the lopsided stages with the most advantageous rig and go from there. It eliminates overnight M/GM. If a few of the current GMs shoot those classifiers, not necessarily for score but for the purpose of resetting the HHF, with the 8 shot minor the we should be close to a workable system without disrupting the rest of the divisions.

I also think if you go to the trouble of searching for the easy classifiers to get a higher ranking on paper you will get your tail handed to you on the overall big time.