Classifiers and 6/8 shot

[BHill]

So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule?

I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue.

I agree we could be fixing a problem that won't materialize but the potential is out there so I think it is better to discuss the issue prior to actually having a problem. It may not lead to a change but at least you have a few people thinking about it. Proactive approach versus reactive is all. Two years from now it won't matter a bit just trying to eliminate the headache between now and then.

[ZackJones]

Add 06-02, Big Barricade II to this list.

Thanks for pointing this one out. I edited my post to include it.

[ZackJones]

even with a light chamfer on my 8 shot , they clips slide right in.

I have never seen a revolver that the cylinder opens to the right like that.

[alecmc]

even with a light chamfer on my 8 shot , they clips slide right in.

I have never seen a revolver that the cylinder opens to the right like that.

LoL ! it doesnt, for whatever reason the video is " mirrored " ---- I'm actually holding it with my right hand.

Though, That would be a pretty cool modification for lefties, I wonder if it's ever been done?

[seanc]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

It's a fair point to be sure....

But we all know, or at least believe, that when 8 shooters start shooting the 8 or 13+ shot classifiers they are going to annihilate the HHF...

[alecmc]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

It's a fair point to be sure....

But we all know, or at least believe, that when 8 shooters start shooting the 8 or 13+ shot classifiers they are going to annihilate the HHF...

Yeh, but lets assume that both minor guns and major guns are all scoring alphas.... Where is the advantage? Sounds level to me.

Dont want to lose points shooting Cs and Ds? --- Shoot Major, or Aim Better

[seanc]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

It's a fair point to be sure....

But we all know, or at least believe, that when 8 shooters start shooting the 8 or 13+ shot classifiers they are going to annihilate the HHF...

Yeh, but lets assume that both minor guns and major guns are all scoring alphas.... Where is the advantage? Sounds level to me.

Dont want to lose points shooting Cs and Ds? --- Shoot Major, or Aim Better

I don't know man...an extra reload at 1.6(world class) reload is still a massive number of points on these short things. Like huge.

I know there is at least one classifier, there are probably more, where with a revolver there is drop turner that comes to rest invisible, and the revolver strategy with 6 is to leave it, but if you had 8 you would almost certainly take it.

[alecmc]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

It's a fair point to be sure....

But we all know, or at least believe, that when 8 shooters start shooting the 8 or 13+ shot classifiers they are going to annihilate the HHF...

Yeh, but lets assume that both minor guns and major guns are all scoring alphas.... Where is the advantage? Sounds level to me.

Dont want to lose points shooting Cs and Ds? --- Shoot Major, or Aim Better

I don't know man...an extra reload at 1.6(world class) reload is still a massive number of points on these short things. Like huge.

I know there is at least one classifier, there are probably more, where with a revolver there is drop turner that comes to rest invisible, and the revolver strategy with 6 is to leave it, but if you had 8 you would almost certainly take it.

No No, I agree - thats the point I was trying to make...

Assume that both 8 shot minor and 6 shot major, they hit all Alphas on an classifier with 8 shots.

The 6 shot gun, shoots 6 , reloads , shoots 2

The 8 shot gun, shoots 8. Done.

The math just doesnt work out, no way to adjust hit factors to work out for both, the 8 shot gun will have saved 1.5-3 seconds right off the bat ( depending on reloads )

[gose]

So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule?

I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue.

+1

Give it some time. USPSA is going to start yanking classifiers because they MIGHT affect a TINY minority of the USPSA membership? Really?

After this year, if all Revolver shooters are M & GM, then start fixing things. But we all know that won't happen.

I think it makes perfect sense to yank, or adjust, classifiers based on a rule change that might affect 1% or less of the members.

After all, revolvers are the future of USPSA.

[Racinready300ex]

So we punish all the other divisions because the smallest division has a new rule?

I vote uspsa collects more data before doing anything. You could be fixing a problem that doesn't actually cause an issue.

+1

Give it some time. USPSA is going to start yanking classifiers because they MIGHT affect a TINY minority of the USPSA membership? Really?

After this year, if all Revolver shooters are M & GM, then start fixing things. But we all know that won't happen.

I think it makes perfect sense to yank, or adjust, classifiers based on a rule change that might affect 1% or less of the members.

After all, revolvers are the future of USPSA.

They should have thought about that before they made the rule change. If they are going to do they should do it right, not half ass it becuase it's a small % of the members.

[alecmc]

It shouldn't matter if its 1% of members, or 75% of members... The whole point of the classification system is to get an honest nation wide percentage of where you stand among other competitors, if that means tossing a handful of classifers, oh well.

Are the other divisions reallllly going to miss them ? You should be thanking us, we are saving you 2 rounds per match! That adds up!

[Supermoto]

It shouldn't matter if its 1% of members, or 75% of members... The whole point of the classification system is to get an honest nation wide percentage of where you stand among other competitors, if that means tossing a handful of classifers, oh well.

Are the other divisions reallllly going to miss them ? You should be thanking us, we are saving you 2 rounds per match! That adds up!

It would affect less people to get rid of revolver division then the classifiers

Revolver shooters wanted to add 8 shots, let them deal with the mess they have created.

[toothguy]

Would it be possible to leave things the way they are and give the 6 shooters a handicap where appropriate?

[Racinready300ex]

It shouldn't matter if its 1% of members, or 75% of members... The whole point of the classification system is to get an honest nation wide percentage of where you stand among other competitors, if that means tossing a handful of classifers, oh well.

Are the other divisions reallllly going to miss them ? You should be thanking us, we are saving you 2 rounds per match! That adds up!

It would affect less people to get rid of revolver division then the classifiers

Revolver shooters wanted to add 8 shots, let them deal with the mess they have created.

Not all revolver shooters wanted it. The rules have been changed, now they need to make sure it works. Other wise they should have left well enough alone.

[9146gt]

I thought the minor power fator was the great equalizer? There will be classifers that plqy to the 6 shot and those that will benefit the 8. If future classifiers designs keep and equal number of classifers that do one or the other I dont see why we would change anything.

In my example above, the stage is more of a reloading stage as opposed to a shooting stage.

Shoot 6, reload. Shoot 1 reload. Shoot 6 reload. Shoot 1

An 8 shot would have a big advantage.

Seems pretty easy to me, with the big difference in capacity 6>29 all divisions 6 shots relaod. Now there is no advantage.

And while we are at it no PF requirement.

Tom

[BHill]

We could just put the classifier scores that would be effected into limbo until they are shot at a match with a qualifying number of GMs shooting them and then post/modify percentages on only those shot after the new rules are in effect.

[Bosshoss]

This is why I was opposed to the rule change, I've stated before that I would support the rule change if they had a plan as to what they would do with the classifiers. Don't get me wrong I think what they are doing(dropping classifiers) is the only fair thing that they can do. And at least they are trying to give Revolver division a shot in the arm.

If we leave as is then I could set up a classifier match Feb.1 and cherry pick the 8 shot friendly classifiers and any decent C class revolver shooter could make GM in one match. I worked hard to get to where I'm at and I know many other shooters that have put more into it than I have and this would make all that work for nothing when a rule change screws up the integrity of the classifier system.

I know some say it is already screwed up(some classifiers HHF are way off) but the way it is everybody shoots the same classifier with basically the same equipment. (until Feb. 1)

Dropping the classification system and making it a heads up division WILL KILL revolver division. One of the draws of this sport is seeing where you stack up against the best in the sport. If you are a new shooter into revolver division how would you judge your progress? It;s not like we have several other shooters in the division at every match to compare yourself to. I know as I got better and my classification % went up I could see my improvements. This would also kill attendance at level 2 and up matches(especially the nationals) as why would any lower class shooter show up knowing they don't have a chance to win anything? It was great seeing all the class winners get a gun at the nationals.

With the new stand alone nationals we have something good going and I feel that taking the acknowledgment from all the class winners will hurt attendance.

As a solution to the problem at hand. Dropping the classifiers mentioned is the best way.

Another solution might be to take the said classifiers affected and have a separate HHF for 8 shot revolvers. This would need to be marked on the score sheet and noted when scoring. How to get this HHF at this late date? Well I would say that SS is the most comparable to 8 shot revolver take SS HHF adjust down 10 % for slower reloads and other differences and make that the HHF for 8 revolver and leave 6 revolver as is for HHF.

Would be some work from the scoring aspect but will leave all the classifiers in tact.

The new rule should have been set to go into affect 6-1-2014 so the board had some more time to figure this out.

[ChrisC]

According to what I read on the board minutes they have till the end of the month to figure it out.

[71Commander]

According to what I read on the board minutes they have till the end of the month to figure it out.

Where did you read that? I looked and couldn't find it.

[Bosshoss]

According to what I read on the board minutes they have till the end of the month to figure it out.

Where did you read that? I looked and couldn't find it.

The new rule goes into affect Feb.1

Any changes will need to be done before then.

[Racinready300ex]

This is why I was opposed to the rule change, I've stated before that I would support the rule change if they had a plan as to what they would do with the classifiers. Don't get me wrong I think what they are doing(dropping classifiers) is the only fair thing that they can do. And at least they are trying to give Revolver division a shot in the arm.

If we leave as is then I could set up a classifier match Feb.1 and cherry pick the 8 shot friendly classifiers and any decent C class revolver shooter could make GM in one match. I worked hard to get to where I'm at and I know many other shooters that have put more into it than I have and this would make all that work for nothing when a rule change screws up the integrity of the classifier system.

I know some say it is already screwed up(some classifiers HHF are way off) but the way it is everybody shoots the same classifier with basically the same equipment. (until Feb. 1)

Dropping the classification system and making it a heads up division WILL KILL revolver division. One of the draws of this sport is seeing where you stack up against the best in the sport. If you are a new shooter into revolver division how would you judge your progress? It;s not like we have several other shooters in the division at every match to compare yourself to. I know as I got better and my classification % went up I could see my improvements. This would also kill attendance at level 2 and up matches(especially the nationals) as why would any lower class shooter show up knowing they don't have a chance to win anything? It was great seeing all the class winners get a gun at the nationals.

With the new stand alone nationals we have something good going and I feel that taking the acknowledgment from all the class winners will hurt attendance.

As a solution to the problem at hand. Dropping the classifiers mentioned is the best way.

Another solution might be to take the said classifiers affected and have a separate HHF for 8 shot revolvers. This would need to be marked on the score sheet and noted when scoring. How to get this HHF at this late date? Well I would say that SS is the most comparable to 8 shot revolver take SS HHF adjust down 10 % for slower reloads and other differences and make that the HHF for 8 revolver and leave 6 revolver as is for HHF.

Would be some work from the scoring aspect but will leave all the classifiers in tact.

The new rule should have been set to go into affect 6-1-2014 so the board had some more time to figure this out.

Well said, and your idea of stealing HHf from SS to make a seperate HHF for 8 shot might work. Although dropping classifiers would be simpler at this point.

And when I said makeing revolver heads up, I was trying to imply not fixing the system for the 8 shot guns would do just that. Everyone with 8 shot guns would be signifigant bumps in classification. We'd all me M's and GM's, so we'd be shooting heads up. I wasn't trying to say we should make it all heads up.

[ChrisC]

71commander

Page 5 of the minutes under the heading revolver classifiers

Edited January 9, 2014 by ChrisC

[alecmc]

According to what I read on the board minutes they have till the end of the month to figure it out.

Where did you read that? I looked and couldn't find it.

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20131214.pdf

Revolver Classifiers

Classification Committee to review classifiers that need to be retired NLT January 31, 2014. Acceptable replacements must be adopted in a reasonable time.

Motion to Adjourn for the day– 1708

Moved: Pres Seconded: A8 PASSED

[Shadow]

But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

It's a fair point to be sure....

But we all know, or at least believe, that when 8 shooters start shooting the 8 or 13+ shot classifiers they are going to annihilate the HHF...

Yeh, but lets assume that both minor guns and major guns are all scoring alphas.... Where is the advantage? Sounds level to me.

Dont want to lose points shooting Cs and Ds? --- Shoot Major, or Aim Better

I don't know man...an extra reload at 1.6(world class) reload is still a massive number of points on these short things. Like huge.

I know there is at least one classifier, there are probably more, where with a revolver there is drop turner that comes to rest invisible, and the revolver strategy with 6 is to leave it, but if you had 8 you would almost certainly take it.

Which classifier is that? Must be a secret classifier for revolvers!

[ZackJones]

We really don't know how much work has been done in this area by the BOD already. They have known 8-shot revolver was coming since Oct 8, 2013. As a new 6-shot revolver shooter I do appreciate USPSA doing this to try and level the playing field.