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Classifiers and 6/8 shot


BHill

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But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

It's a fair point to be sure....

But we all know, or at least believe, that when 8 shooters start shooting the 8 or 13+ shot classifiers they are going to annihilate the HHF...

Yeh, but lets assume that both minor guns and major guns are all scoring alphas.... Where is the advantage? Sounds level to me.

Dont want to lose points shooting Cs and Ds? --- Shoot Major, or Aim Better

I don't know man...an extra reload at 1.6(world class) reload is still a massive number of points on these short things. Like huge.

I know there is at least one classifier, there are probably more, where with a revolver there is drop turner that comes to rest invisible, and the revolver strategy with 6 is to leave it, but if you had 8 you would almost certainly take it.

Which classifier is that? Must be a secret classifier for revolvers! :roflol:

Imam probably mistaken. At the first USA match I ever shot I just remember a short stage that I recall being a classifier and watching Dave Olhasso shoot it and he didn't shoot the drop turner because it wasn't worth of. I recall it being a classifier, but it was two short stages in one pit so I could be wrong.

Edit. Am wrong, looking at my classifiers 9-13 was the classifier, the other thing was just a short stage.

Edited by seanc
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Most importantly Classifiers have been retired many times for various reasons.

They will still count if you had shot them in the past, they just won't be used for future new attempts to classify.

As a die hard Revo Division competitor I'm actually in favor of NOT removing any classifiers due to the changes in the Revo Division.

If someone games the system to grandbag, they don't gain much. If they game it to sandbag, it's done already.

As it is, it lets competitors compare their abilities and gear to each other, and in my case between my own different combos. It may be simplistic but I'd think it best to do it at local matches, including with classifiers, in prep for the larger matches.

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Most importantly Classifiers have been retired many times for various reasons.

They will still count if you had shot them in the past, they just won't be used for future new attempts to classify.

As a die hard Revo Division competitor I'm actually in favor of NOT removing any classifiers due to the changes in the Revo Division.

If someone games the system to grandbag, they don't gain much. If they game it to sandbag, it's done already.

As it is, it lets competitors compare their abilities and gear to each other, and in my case between my own different combos. It may be simplistic but I'd think it best to do it at local matches, including with classifiers, in prep for the larger matches.

except for the guys that are shooting on a B or C average, they shoot a few of the 8 shot classifiers, and unwillingly get bumped to A or M. -- What does that do for them when competing at a level 2/3/nats , etc do for them?

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But on a classifier that has you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. The 6 shot gun would have an advantage

It's a fair point to be sure....

But we all know, or at least believe, that when 8 shooters start shooting the 8 or 13+ shot classifiers they are going to annihilate the HHF...

Yeh, but lets assume that both minor guns and major guns are all scoring alphas.... Where is the advantage? Sounds level to me.

Dont want to lose points shooting Cs and Ds? --- Shoot Major, or Aim Better

I don't know man...an extra reload at 1.6(world class) reload is still a massive number of points on these short things. Like huge.

I know there is at least one classifier, there are probably more, where with a revolver there is drop turner that comes to rest invisible, and the revolver strategy with 6 is to leave it, but if you had 8 you would almost certainly take it.

Which classifier is that? Must be a secret classifier for revolvers! :roflol:

Imam probably mistaken. At the first USA match I ever shot I just remember a short stage that I recall being a classifier and watching Dave Olhasso shoot it and he didn't shoot the drop turner because it wasn't worth of. I recall it being a classifier, but it was two short stages in one pit so I could be wrong.

Edit. Am wrong, looking at my classifiers 9-13 was the classifier, the other thing was just a short stage.

I've seen that before at a few local matches, shooters deliberately missing targets and taking mikes because skipping it would of yielded a faster time and higher hit factor.

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This is an awful lot of discussion about something that doesn't much matter. The class system has been broken in this division for years anyway. (Not really sure it's much better in the other divisions.) Let the BOD fix it as Kyle has mentioned. There--problem solved.

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Yeah, we used to just up the hit-factor when a competitively better piece of equipment came along (well, in theory anyway) Classifiers didn't get dumped when 16-round STI 40s became legal in Limited.

And it seems that's still the policy: Page 5. https://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/Intro.pdf


The maximum hit factors are derived from the scores of the top shooters. Since these top shooters can, and
sometimes do, make changes in their equipment or technique, the maximum hit factors need to changed as
well.

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Classifiers should reflect the rules that govern the rest of the game.

Seems to me that we need to change rule 1.2.1, from 8 to 6.

Or, retire all existing classifiers with the disparity (to avoid the instant GM thing), BUT continue to add similar ones in the future.

I favor the second option myself. No long term changes.

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Here's my list of classifiers I'd recommend be removed/modified:

99-41 - Works for Me

99-57 - Bookout's Boogie

03-03 - Take 'em Down

03-04 - 3-V

03-08 - Madness

03-09 - On The Move

06-01 - Big Barricade

06-02 - Big Barricade II

06-04 - Fluffy's Revenge 1

06-05 - Fluffy's Revenge 2

09-02 - Diamond Cutter

09-04 - Pucker Factor

09-13 - Table Stakes

13-02 - Down The Middle

13-05 - Tick-Tock

13-07 - Double Deal 2

13-09 - Window Pain

Edited to add 06-02

Maybe add 09-10, Life's Little Problems as well.

Edited by Shadow
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The way to effect the fewest number of shooters is to call for all revolver shooters to load with 6 to start and then 6 rounds only between reloads on the classifiers.

Keeps the Revolver playing field level and has zero effect on anyone else.

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And while we're on Classifiers, would we not agree that they have little to no relation to how the current game is played?

I much prefer the shooting skill emphasis of classifiers, but they are estranged from the modern reality of USPSA stages and matches.

My personal choice would be to bring the game back to Classifier style, but I may be the only person in the country who thinks that way.

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If you're shooting a six shot revolver where would you reload? Where with an 8 shot? You don't think there's not a significant advantage to the eight shot?

I generally reload after 6.

Can't go any farther - 'cause I'm outta bullets!

But sometimes sooner, if there's a reason.

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And while we're on Classifiers, would we not agree that they have little to no relation to how the current game is played?

I much prefer the shooting skill emphasis of classifiers, but they are estranged from the modern reality of USPSA stages and matches.

My personal choice would be to bring the game back to Classifier style, but I may be the only person in the country who thinks that way.

So, to summarize, you'd rather not have to move?

Because it takes no skill to move efficiently between arrays... :/

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Here's my list of classifiers I'd recommend be removed/modified:

99-41 - Works for Me

99-57 - Bookout's Boogie

03-03 - Take 'em Down

03-04 - 3-V

03-08 - Madness

03-09 - On The Move

06-01 - Big Barricade

06-02 - Big Barricade II

06-04 - Fluffy's Revenge 1

06-05 - Fluffy's Revenge 2

09-02 - Diamond Cutter

09-04 - Pucker Factor

09-13 - Table Stakes

13-02 - Down The Middle

13-05 - Tick-Tock

13-07 - Double Deal 2

13-09 - Window Pain

Edited to add 06-02

Maybe add 09-10, Life's Little Problems as well.

I'm actually looking at these now and I'm not buying either of these.

99-41

09-10

99-41 is straight up no question, In theory this is exactly where major scoring balances against transitions for example.

09-10 is hard but big deal...

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If you're shooting a six shot revolver where would you reload? Where with an 8 shot? You don't think there's a significant advantage to the eight shot?

With a six shooter I would take 1 step left and shoot t1,2&4 then 2 steps right while reloading and shoot t6,5 & 3.

With and 8 shooter it would probably be the same. Advantage would come from have additional shot available but every one of those is just time on the clock. Good if you miss but it's killing you HF.

Keep in mind I am new to the game in general but this is how I see this one.

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If we're talking about 09-10, it may not be clear in the diagram, but that is a low port. What you describe would require you to bend down into the port twice. Most 6 shot revolver shooters will do 2 reloads on this stage.

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I had looked at that but my knees are still young enough to get away with just the one reload. For me at this stage I think it would be faster to squat a little at the back of the box and shoot the lower 4" of the A zone. Should be 16 to 20 inches off the ground. Top of the port is 35" so a downward shot at 8-10' depending on where you end up in the box.

Edited by BHill
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I'm actually looking at these now and I'm not buying either of these.

99-41

09-10

99-41 is straight up no question, In theory this is exactly where major scoring balances against transitions for example.

09-10 is hard but big deal...

After looking at 99-41 again I agree with you. It's possible to shoot it where only 1 reload is required for a 6-shot revolver. When I first looked at it I was thinking a 6-shot revolver would require two reloads and it doesn't provided you go 1 for 1 on the steel.

Regarding 09-10 I agree. I don't see an advantage for the 8-shot revolvers. Not saying this is the best approach but you could engage T1, T2, T5, Reload T6, T3, T4. That way you just have to deal with the targets through the port at the end.

Thanks for your feedback. The more of us that get involved with the review the better. I hope Kyle posts his list for us to review.

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I'm not really concerned with slight advantages one way or the other only the classifiers with major discrepancies. I'm sure the BOD will catch those and the rest will work themselves out. Regardless I'm glad to see the interest in Revolvers.

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And while we're on Classifiers, would we not agree that they have little to no relation to how the current game is played?

I much prefer the shooting skill emphasis of classifiers, but they are estranged from the modern reality of USPSA stages and matches.

My personal choice would be to bring the game back to Classifier style, but I may be the only person in the country who thinks that way.

So, to summarize, you'd rather not have to move?

Because it takes no skill to move efficiently between arrays... :/

I also like chocolate ice cream.

Is that OK?

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If we're talking about 09-10, it may not be clear in the diagram, but that is a low port. What you describe would require you to bend down into the port twice. Most 6 shot revolver shooters will do 2 reloads on this stage.

Exactly!

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If we're talking about 09-10, it may not be clear in the diagram, but that is a low port. What you describe would require you to bend down into the port twice. Most 6 shot revolver shooters will do 2 reloads on this

Exactly!

I don't think most would and in any case just because "most would" is not a reason. Its 12 shots from 1 box.

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