Classifiers and 6/8 shot

[seanc]

That is a classifier I actually have seen in more than one match. It is not possible to shoot all the target from one position.

[71Commander]

That is a classifier I actually have seen in more than one match. It is not possible to shoot all the target from one position.

Yes I know. I have shot it. Shooting from one position is different than shooting from one box.

[hopalong]

My suggestion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Make all classifiers 9 shots minimum and that will make it a non issue! !!!!!!

Hop

[56hawk]

So, what is going to happen in the future? Are all new classifiers going to be 6 shot neutral?

[pskys2]

So, what is going to happen in the future? Are all new classifiers going to be 6 shot neutral?

At the advent of Single Stack they were weeded down to no more than 8. The majority have been 6 shot neutral.

It's kind of a non-issue as the classifiers are usually very basic, no movers, swingers or tricky props. They are supposed to be a test of your basic shooting skills, not your ability to game/breakdown a stage. More than a few find it difficult to move up on classifiers, yet do so as a result of their placement at major matches.

[PatJones]

We have an interesting situation in revolver now.

For many of us it will be easier to break the stages down with an 8-shooter, and this will give us an advantage in the match.

If we limit the classifiers to 6 reload 6, the 6-shooter with major scoring will have a real advantage.

All of this is fine, but you may find yourself making a decision as to whether you want to finish higher in the overall or increase your classification.

I do shoot a 627, but it would be my inclination to leave most of the classifiers alone but set the high hit factor appropriately. You could certainly cherry pick 6 classifiers that favor the 8-shooters but the same is true of the major scoring 6-shooters.

[ChrisC]

Pat you hit that nail right on the head in my opinion.

[pskys2]

We have an interesting situation in revolver now.

For many of us it will be easier to break the stages down with an 8-shooter, and this will give us an advantage in the match.

If we limit the classifiers to 6 reload 6, the 6-shooter with major scoring will have a real advantage.

All of this is fine, but you may find yourself making a decision as to whether you want to finish higher in the overall or increase your classification.

I do shoot a 627, but it would be my inclination to leave most of the classifiers alone but set the high hit factor appropriately. You could certainly cherry pick 6 classifiers that favor the 8-shooters but the same is true of the major scoring 6-shooters.

One reason why I thinks it's a non issue. But with the classifiers being so basic might not a minor shoot a tad faster and if your trigger control is good no points down balance the 45's major advantage?

[seanc]

We have an interesting situation in revolver now.

For many of us it will be easier to break the stages down with an 8-shooter, and this will give us an advantage in the match.

If we limit the classifiers to 6 reload 6, the 6-shooter with major scoring will have a real advantage.

All of this is fine, but you may find yourself making a decision as to whether you want to finish higher in the overall or increase your classification.

I do shoot a 627, but it would be my inclination to leave most of the classifiers alone but set the high hit factor appropriately. You could certainly cherry pick 6 classifiers that favor the 8-shooters but the same is true of the major scoring 6-shooters.

This is an excellent point that I overlooked.

I'm leaning towards leaving things alone at this point I think.

[9146gt]

If USPSA allows a gun that only holds 6 rounds....then all divisions and classifiers must shoot 6 and reload.

Only fair!!

Tom

Edited January 17, 2014 by 9146gt

[Tom E]

Some of the more egregious classifiers, and 03-08 Madness comes to mind but there are others equally biased against a 6 shooter, could be "fixed" with just a wording change.

Change:

Upon start signal, from Box A only, engage T1-T7 with only one round per target, perform a mandatory reload and reengage T1-T7 with only one round per target.

To:

Upon start signal, from Box A only, engage T1-T7 with only one round per target then reengage T1-T7 with only one round per target. One mandatory reload must be performed during the COF after the 1st rd is fired but before the last rd is fired.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Tom E

[ChrisC]

here is the bottom line: USPSA is going to get rid of some classifiers

I am more than happy to shoot 6 shot classifiers with my 8 shot gun just as I was shooting 8 shot classifiers with my 6 shot gun.

I always wished when I was shooting the 8 shot classifiers they would just let us shoot them how we wanted to (i.e. none of that 6 reload 2 reload 6 reload 2) I thought it would have been fair if they just required a reload and not so much as when.

We have yet to see how the 8 gun is going to affect the sport. My belief is there will be a few that will do well with the 6 major and there are those that will do well with the 8 minor. I don't think what my classification is really matters because I always want to beat the guy that finished ahead of me.

[71Commander]

If USPSA allows a gun that only holds 6 rounds....then all divisions and classifiers must shoot 6 and reload.

Only fair!!

Tom

Why?

You're not shooting against divisions that allow more round capacity. It would make no difference to your standing if an open gun didn't need to make a mag change. You're only shooting against revo's. Either you're scoring major or minor.

Edited January 17, 2014 by 71Commander

[BHill]

here is the bottom line: I always want to beat the guy that finished ahead of me.

Regardless of div.

[wheelie]

I don't think major/minor will have much effect on Classifier scores in a way that matters. If you're shooing a lot of Cs, you're gonna also be shooting a lot of Ms and Penalties. The score on target is always gonna be pretty much all the points available or very close to it for anyone who is shooting at or near the top. Any difference in the major/minor scoring will be made up on lesser recoil of minor and resulting lower time.

The difference in round capacity of the various guns has much more effect on scores than anything else. Mandatory reloads after 6 for revolvers levels the field. Otherwise we're just throwing the 6 shot guys under the bus on Classifiers, and boosting shooters who can't shoot as well but bought a gun that holds more bullets. There's a round capacity limit in Production (generally less than the capacity available in the gun) for a reason.

Making this into a game where some of the people who play it now are disadvantaged or forced to buy new guns and set up for new calibers to keep in the game is pretty harsh. Killing off the currently prevalent equipment in Revolver is a very bad idea.

If you want more people to participate in the sport you have to let them through the door.

Can't shut 'em out. Six and reload lets everyone play fair.

IMO.

[John Z Sr]

It shouldn't matter if its 1% of members, or 75% of members... The whole point of the classification system is to get an honest nation wide percentage of where you stand among other competitors, if that means tossing a handful of classifers, oh well.

Are the other divisions reallllly going to miss them ? You should be thanking us, we are saving you 2 rounds per match! That adds up!

It would affect less people to get rid of revolver division then the classifiers

Revolver shooters wanted to add 8 shots, let them deal with the mess they have created.

Not all revolver shooters wanted it. The rules have been changed, now they need to make sure it works. Other wise they should have left well enough a

Edited January 17, 2014 by John Z Sr

[John Z Sr]

My suggestion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Make all classifiers 9 shots minimum and that will make it a non issue! !!!!!!

Hop

nice point

[Carmoney]

It shouldn't matter if its 1% of members, or 75% of members... The whole point of the classification system is to get an honest nation wide percentage of where you stand among other competitors, if that means tossing a handful of classifers, oh well.

Are the other divisions reallllly going to miss them ? You should be thanking us, we are saving you 2 rounds per match! That adds up!

It would affect less people to get rid of revolver division then the classifiers

Revolver shooters wanted to add 8 shots, let them deal with the mess they have created.

Not all revolver shooters wanted it. The rules have been changed, now they need to make sure it works. Other wise they should have left well enough alone.

Exactly, not all REVO shooters wanted it, Jerry did, and he got it, and surprise surprise, he has a new gun out by S&W made JUST FOR THIS, what an amazing coincidence!! Sorry guys, hate me for it, but someone had to say what many are thinking. I'm all about Capitalism, but this was just a stupid move that never had to be done. We REVO guys, and gals, never bothered anyone, we pay our fees, work matches, RO, and everything else. Revolvers are the ONLY guns that can be legally shot in 5 of the 6 Divisions in USPSA (can't in SS) so to say there was no where to shoot a 7 or 8 shot revo is pure BS. Just my humble opinion, be SAFE, have FUN and support all shooters.

John, you've been spending too much time listening to Cliff! Despite what you guys think, Jerry didn't have a whole lot to do with the rule change. You were sitting there when Cliff bet me the dollar--who was right about that? ;-)

Seriously, it's a done deal now, and most of us think it was a really good move! We will soon know if the rule change is enough to save a dying division. None of this classifier discussion matters if there are only a tiny handful of shooters who bother to shoot the wheels. Hopefully we will see a nice increase in participation. That is....what you guys....want.....isn't it?

[No.343]

My suggestion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Make all classifiers 9 shots minimum and that will make it a non issue! !!!!!!

Hop

But not more than 10 just in case I want to shoot my snubby. It wouldn't be fair for me to have to reload more with the snub.

[chevyoneton]

Revolver shooters wanted to add 8 shots, let them deal with the mess they have created.

No, WE did not! At least the six or seven actual revolver shooters I know. But whatever, things change and evolve. If it is good for the division overall then so be it. I will continue to shoot my old S&W 1955 as I can't justify a new $1,000 plus handgun (right now). Whatever needs to be done to make the classifiers fair. I am not worried about getting blown out by the eight-shooters, but they don't need to be unrealistically classified higher than they should either. That makes the classification system a joke.

[John Z Sr]

It shouldn't matter if its 1% of members, or 75% of members... The whole point of the classification system is to get an honest nation wide percentage of where you stand among other competitors, if that means tossing a handful of classifers, oh well.

Are the other divisions reallllly going to miss them ? You should be thanking us, we are saving you 2 rounds per match! That adds up!

It would affect less people to get rid of revolver division then the classifiers

Revolver shooters wanted to add 8 shots, let them deal with the mess they have created.

Not all revolver shooters wanted it. The rules have been changed, now they need to make sure it works. Other wise they should have left well enough alone.

Exactly, not all REVO shooters wanted it, Jerry did, and he got it, and surprise surprise, he has a new gun out by S&W made JUST FOR THIS, what an amazing coincidence!! Sorry guys, hate me for it, but someone had to say what many are thinking. I'm all about Capitalism, but this was just a stupid move that never had to be done. We REVO guys, and gals, never bothered anyone, we pay our fees, work matches, RO, and everything else. Revolvers are the ONLY guns that can be legally shot in 5 of the 6 Divisions in USPSA (can't in SS) so to say there was no where to shoot a 7 or 8 shot revo is pure BS. Just my humble opinion, be SAFE, have FUN and support all shooters.

John, you've been spending too much time listening to Cliff! Despite what you guys think, Jerry didn't have a whole lot to do with the rule change. You were sitting there when Cliff bet me the dollar--who was right about that? ;-)

Seriously, it's a done deal now, and most of us think it was a really good move! We will soon know if the rule change is enough to save a dying division. None of this classifier discussion matters if there are only a tiny handful of shooters who bother to shoot the wheels. Hopefully we will see a nice increase in participation. That is....what you guys....want.....isn't it?

Yup, you know it's my job to keep feathers rustled!!! Hope you are well my REVO Brother, I owe you a cigar or 2. Shoot our Back-2-Back level 2 matches in April

[revoman]

I thought it was Rob who wanted the 8 shot minor so he could beat Jerry. Hell if we are throwing out conspiracy theory's I think aliens shot JFK so we wouldn't land on the moon. Serious though lets all put on our big pants and act like adults. If you have no proof or cold hard facts on what you are stating then it is like the old saying goes. "Opinions are like a------s everybody's got one" and please keep them to yourself so we can keep this forum informative and on subject.

If you have a hate there is a What I Hate topic put your hate there and see how many follow. Don't be surprised if you and a handful are the only ones who reply.

Yes we can shoot our revolvers in other divisions but after awhile it is no longer fun as you can beat a few and maybe even place in the middle but you will never be at the top. I always like to see how I stand against other revolver shooters not someone who can run around shoot fast and furious never reload and never get a single A but yet they beat me because they can shoot faster and never have to reload. If I wanted to compete in other divisions I would buy the gear that is needed to be competitive in that division. If you are going to race, race don't come to the Indy 500 with a model A and say I can compete because I have a motor and 4 wheels.

Enough of my ranting and yes I will be shooting 6 shot major at Nationals and maybe I will try my hand at the 8 shot minor later on. I have plenty of them to use and I don't want them to feel lonely.

[John Z Sr]

I thought it was Rob who wanted the 8 shot minor so he could beat Jerry. Hell if we are throwing out conspiracy theory's I think aliens shot JFK so we wouldn't land on the moon. Serious though lets all put on our big pants and act like adults. If you have no proof or cold hard facts on what you are stating then it is like the old saying goes. "Opinions are like a------s everybody's got one" and please keep them to yourself so we can keep this forum informative and on subject.

If you have a hate there is a What I Hate topic put your hate there and see how many follow. Don't be surprised if you and a handful are the only ones who reply.

Yes we can shoot our revolvers in other divisions but after awhile it is no longer fun as you can beat a few and maybe even place in the middle but you will never be at the top. I always like to see how I stand against other revolver shooters not someone who can run around shoot fast and furious never reload and never get a single A but yet they beat me because they can shoot faster and never have to reload. If I wanted to compete in other divisions I would buy the gear that is needed to be competitive in that division. If you are going to race, race don't come to the Indy 500 with a model A and say I can compete because I have a motor and 4 wheels.

Enough of my ranting and yes I will be shooting 6 shot major at Nationals and maybe I will try my hand at the 8 shot minor later on. I have plenty of them to use and I don't want them to feel lonely.

you are right, I was wrong, I took it down

[9146gt]

If USPSA allows a gun that only holds 6 rounds....then all divisions and classifiers must shoot 6 and reload.

Only fair!!

Tom

Why?

You're not shooting against divisions that allow more round capacity. It would make no difference to your standing if an open gun didn't need to make a mag change. You're only shooting against revo's. Either you're scoring major or minor.

Why minor vs major?...projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored...steel must be knocked down to score.Done.

Tom

[seanc]

I thought it was Rob who wanted the 8 shot minor so he could beat Jerry.

Jerry with no recoil will be even faster if that's possible....