Powder Selection and the future of VV (38 super only)

[markiemark]

Hi,

I would like to hear some of your thoughts on this subject. I have been reloading for almost 40 years, but I just purchased a STI Grandmaster in .38 Super, so this is a whole new, yet exciting, world for me to start working up loads for this. And I spent about 8 hours researching powders on this forum before asking this.

After all of my reading, I decided that I would pick up some VV 3N37, 3N38 and N350. I was also interested in testing SR4756, since I load that for two other calibers.

Then I read all the discussion and then verified that Hodgdon/IMR is truly ceasing the production of SR4756 in a couple of months. So that is out.

Then I had a discussion with a gentleman I know that is a large smokeless powder distributor. He explained to me that I should not get too excited about the VV because the plant in Finland has some huge issues and needs $60 billion do bring the plant up to code, can't afford it, and have been trying to find a buyer. And this has not happened. He furthermore told me that they told him that effective January 1, 2014 they will no longer be taking any more orders on powder. They will only keep the plant running just enough to take care of all of their backorders. Now, one gentleman that I know did tell me that I should ignore that and he felt that someone.....maybe Hodgdon...maybe Winchester....maybe Alliant....but that someone would at least buy the recipes for their powders and probably continue them down the road somewhere.

But before I go any further, I am curious if you have heard this, as well. But most important, I feel sort of shut out because after 8 hours of reading favorite powder recipes, I ended up picking 4 powders that I will not be able to obtain very soon.

That said, I have been looking at the burn rate charts to try and figure out a few things. And I guess I could sure just pick 4 or 5 powders and see what happens. But let's say that none of us can get these four powders in the future......what other favorite powders would you suggest? As I look at the list I do recall hearing some of these mentioned in posts, but nothing near as much as the three VV powders.

I could try 800X, HS-6, Longshot, A #5, WAP, power pistol, silhouette or true blue. And although I do not see this on the chart anywhere, I was actually going to try Win Auto Comp, too. Forgot that one. Any thoughts on any of these from any of you?

I just feel horrible that the VV situation sounds so daunting. But I don't want to get excited about it if I may not be able to get it later.

I hope to hear some good news from you experienced 38 super loaders.

Mark

[orangeman711]

HS-6 and Silouette, along with Winchester AutoComp would all be very good candidates. WAP has been out of production for years.

[Steve RA]

The new Hodgdon CFE Pistol might - after it's out - be a candidate. Time will tell.

[DougCarden]

Western Powder repackaged WAP, it is now Ramshot Silhouette.....

DougC

[Pasley]

What about Blue Dot? I don't load 38 Super but it has worked well for me in other cartridges. Seems like the burn rate should be about right.

[BSeevers]

VV was purchased by Lapua. That could be very good since they are a much larger ammo, not just a chemical company. What happens in the interem is the question. They are not a stupid company and purchased them to make money. Now if they were just buying the formulas and want to make VV in their plants I think there would be a transistion period.I am sticking with VV for a while but yea I am concerned

I guess I should add I don't like most powders in the same burn range. Their impulse seems to be a bit more snappy or just different which is enough for me and they are all more dirty. I think the real issue is that all powder seems to be difficult to obtain and that is getting to be a pain.

Edited December 26, 2013 by BSeevers

[rooster mcbee]

I imagine that all of us .38S shooters are trying to come up with a backup plan for the rumored potential loss of our favorite powders. I personally have used Longshot with good results, and HS-6 also. Autocomp works as well. Ramshot makes a couple of powders that I would be willing to try, but I never can find them for sale. I think we have options, but I'm going to wait and see how it pans out before I make any changes.

[zaphar]

This may be useful for figuring out a powder to try (I would use it to find a powder and then look it up in a reloading manual). There are a few newer powders that are missing so not sure about them.

Cartridge          : .38 Super Auto +P (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .355, 124, Hornady HP/XTP 35571
Useable Case Capaci: 12.436 grain H2O = 0.807 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.260 inch = 32.00 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Muzzle Velocity: 1375 fps or 419 m/s
These calculations refer to your specified settings in 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate No.7                       85.4     10.6     0.68    1375    82.3    32946    6867   0.474  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N37                     93.5      8.3     0.54    1375    98.8    35619    6015   0.461  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Longshot                    72.7      8.4     0.54    1375    98.7    36796    5901   0.455  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 540                      71.0      8.4     0.54    1375    98.9    36915    5876   0.454  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot True Blue                   72.1      8.4     0.54    1375    98.8    36900    5883   0.454  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant POWER PISTOL                88.9      8.1     0.52    1375    91.9    32625    6755   0.475  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon HS-6                        76.3      8.6     0.56    1375    97.5    36377    6027   0.457  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant BLUE DOT                   110.9     10.4     0.67    1375    81.6    33934    6801   0.470  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N38                    106.0      9.9     0.64    1375    87.0    34355    6553   0.466  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant UNIQUE                      95.2      7.0     0.46    1375   100.0    36906    5578   0.460  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Universal                   93.2      6.9     0.44    1375   100.0    42164    5010   0.441  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate No.5                       68.4      8.9     0.57    1375    90.7    34746    6488   0.463  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Silhouette                  78.2      7.8     0.50    1375   100.0    37762    5554   0.451  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N340                     95.5      7.3     0.47    1375   100.0    40265    5164   0.442  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WAP                      78.4      7.8     0.51    1375   100.0    37696    5579   0.451  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N350                     97.3      8.1     0.53    1375    99.0    36138    5890   0.456  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant HERCO                      105.5      7.6     0.49    1375    99.9    35608    5921   0.468  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N105                    111.3     10.0     0.65    1375    89.1    30505    6984   0.480
Ramshot Enforcer                   108.2     12.7     0.82    1375    72.3    32573    7024   0.471  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.9                       94.7     11.6     0.75    1375    76.0    34788    6707   0.463  ! Near Maximum !

[Sarge]

Where is that info from.

It shows N350 as dangerous load do not use.

Lots of guys run 350

[warpspeed]

Where is that info from.

It shows N350 as dangerous load do not use.

Lots of guys run 350

Looks like Quickload to me.

[zaphar]

Yes, it is from QL. The warning is in relation to the SAAMI pressure rating and is issued if the loading is above the listed max (36500psi). N350 is listed as 36138PSI which is only ~600 above max so not really that extreme considering there are some people here loading close to/around 40k psi. QL is theoretical, but seems to give a good guesstimate of where the pressure is at. 36501 PSI will cause the "!DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!" tag to appear so take that into consideration. The only two powers on that list I'd avoid trying, when considering pressure, would be N340 and Universal.

Edited December 30, 2013 by zaphar

[outerlimits]

That's bizarre. Shot n350 for over 10 years in 4 different guns. Never ever an issue.

[AICS308]

Used 350 for years in my first open gun. Primers had some flattening but it shot flat, recoil all straight back.

[markiemark]

That is all some great info, guys. What is quick load and where can I down load that?

[zaphar]

It's an interior ballistics program you plug different variables into, it'll provide an estimation of pressure, velocity, etc. based on those values. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickLOAD It is quite useful in my opinion although a bit on the pricy side if you only use it casually. If you like looking at graphs and charts it'll help you figure out what to try. Here is the information rearranged for the powders you mentioned in your original post with arrows next to the ones recommended. These numbers are based on a 5 inch barrel with no comp or holes.

Powder type      caseFill Chg Vel. Burn  max   muzz B_Time
                     %    gr  fps  %     psi   psi  ms
------------------------------------------------------
Ramshot Silhouette   78.2 7.8 1375 100.0 37762 5554 0.451
Ramshot True Blue    72.1 8.4 1375 98.8  36900 5883 0.454
Hodgdon Longshot     72.7 8.4 1375 98.7  36796 5901 0.455 <--
Hodgdon HS-6         76.3 8.6 1375 97.5  36377 6027 0.457 <--
Vihtavuori N350      97.3 8.1 1375 99.0  36138 5890 0.456 <----
Accurate No.5        68.4 8.9 1375 90.7  34746 6488 0.463
Alliant POWER PISTOL 88.9 8.1 1375 91.9  32625 6755 0.475

[Neomet]

The Vit rumors are continually interesting and varied. The latest I heard from someone who speaks to the Vit rep overseas is that they actually have warehouses full of powder but no current importer in the US. Part of that problem doubtlessly is that they require powder be purchased in a minimum of $250K lots. I am more disappointed about 7625 going away. Nice powder and much less expensive than VV.

[gose]

Wow, so much misinformation in one thread...

Vihtavuori was purchased by Nammo (which Lapua is part of) and the acquisition was finalized fairly recently (last few weeks)

VV powders are being imported and there are no plans to halt this, supply is simply just not keeping up with demand.

The Quickload data listed as "Dangerous" above has nothing to do with any particular powder being unsafe, but rather the listed amounts will lead to pressures above SAAMI specs.

Edited December 31, 2013 by gose

[noylj]

From personal experience, best (most accurate powders for near max to Major) have been AA7, 571/HS7, and Silhouette (haven't tried AA9--think it is too slow). True Blue and 800X have been OK.

I expect a whole bunch of discontinued powders over 2014.