when to give up on long range targets?

[MetropolisLake]

So you shoot at this pesky little target 1/4 mile away but miss. And you miss the second shot. And the third. At what point do you throw in the towel and opt to take the penalty?

[kellymc]

I was wonder this myself just incased I missed someday

[ummm]

Isn't 1/4 mile beyond the max distance for pistol targets in USPSA, or is this a 3 gun question?

[MetropolisLake]

Isn't 1/4 mile beyond the max distance for pistol targets in USPSA, or is this a 3 gun question?

3-gun. Most people only go up to 350 yards with pistol so I thought it was obvious.

[Nimitz]

You need to do the scoring math based on how the event is scored. In USPSA it's HF which is points/sec so you'd do the math to see if your final HF on the stage would be higher by taking the miss and penalty but saving time vice eating up seconds but hitting the target eventually. Depending on how long you realistically believed it would take to get your hits there will be a point where it would actually result in a higher HF by taking the miss ....

Without knowing how your event scoring works it would be tough to do the same analysis ...

[Sterling White]

Depends on the penalty...

Depends on the weather....

Depends on the accuracy of your rifle & ammo....

Depends on the shooting position.....

Depends on your ability to see the target and hits....

If you know that your capable, the gun and ammo is capable, you have a stable or good shooting position....then 3 maybe 4. A 5th shot if your fast however each shot is about 1-2+ seconds of added time. Practice is your friend.

[outerlimits]

Depends on the penalty...

Depends on the weather....

Depends on the accuracy of your rifle & ammo....

Depends on the shooting position.....

Depends on your ability to see the target and hits....

If you know that your capable, the gun and ammo is capable, you have a stable or good shooting position....then 3 maybe 4. A 5th shot if your fast however each shot is about 1-2+ seconds of added time. Practice is your friend.

you forgot depends on the price of primers/boolets.

[HRider]

It depends on what the par time (timeout) is for the stage and if you are finishing the stage on the long range targets or transitioning to pistol/shotgun to finish the stage. You wouldn't want to spend all of your time trying to hit a couple of steel and time out without engaging a bunch of other targets with the other gun/guns. Many multigun stages have a 100 second timeout, any targets not engaged before the par time runs out are scored as misses (usually +10 sec each) with failure to engage penalties (usually +5 sec each). In cases where you are shooting rifle first on a rifle/shotgun/pistol stage, I would probably limit myself to 3 rounds at each target and take those penalties if I had to.

Hurley

[CHLChris]

Quarter mile? One quick round and move on. How many times would you even try a shot like that? My range wouldn't even allow me to try.

Maybe I'd be giving up too early, but saving 15 seconds on the stage seems worth the trade-off.

[Flatland Shooter]

Quarter mile? One quick round and move on. How many times would you even try a shot like that? My range wouldn't even allow me to try.

Maybe I'd be giving up too early, but saving 15 seconds on the stage seems worth the trade-off.

When you say 1/4 mile it seems like a long way out. But actually it would be a 440 yard shot.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Flatland Shooter

[Nimitz]

Obviously the real answer is train so that you are able to make whatever kind of shots will be required of you. To plan to fail which is what you are doing when you want a plan for missing targets is counter productive .... Given that, if you really want to know what will let you have the best score you need to know certain things about your shooting and then do the HF math which reveals the correct answer, it's just arithmetic. You will need to factor in the timeout issue if that's in play .... Or

As others have suggested just take a couple of pot shots at the target and when you feel like you've had enough, move on ....

[Hi-Power Jack]

train so you can make whatever shots are required of you.

The important issue (for after the match) is to determine WHY you missed. Then correct that -

the gun, the scope, the ammo, or how the gun's sighted in ...

Whatever the problem, I'd correct it before the Next Match.

[MetropolisLake]

Obviously the real answer is train so that you are able to make whatever kind of shots will be required of you. To plan to fail which is what you are doing when you want a plan for missing targets is counter productive

Not planning to fail, it's just that I've never shot over 225 yards before. RockCastle has had targets at twice that range and I'm not sure how to hit them other than to just hope the BDC markings on the scope are halfway accurate.

What would be counterproductive is if I just sat there flinging lead for 30 seconds, and even if I did finally hit it, I could have just taken one pot shot on the move and got a 20 second "failure to neutralize" penalty. That's 10 seconds in the hole, just to satisfy my own pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps.

Edited November 8, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[MarkCO]

There is a chance you can hit them if:

You know your dope really well, have practiced at the ranges you can shoot at. But, it is better to know you can hit them. For most people, that is going to mean getting out and shooting your rifle, with match ammo from positions and at ranges you are likely to encounter at matches.

Except for a few 3Gun matches, that means 350 max, which can be done "mathematically" having only shot out to about 100 if you know what you are doing. Past that, you pretty much have to verify the math with actual practice and verification.

For the question though. If they are past 350, try to shoot one that will give you bullet feedback, meaning you can see hits and adjust from there. I have seen guys miss a few rounds, hold on a patch of dirt 20 yards away from the target, get feedback and then go on. If you can't get any feedback, then it might be best to shoot 3 rounds or so at the first one, if no hit, then default to one per and move on.

[P.E. Kelley]

Wow, lots of answers from guys that must rarely miss!

MarkCO has it right, Do your best with the first and or second shot and collect the feedback if you can. Fire the last one or two and done, no matter the outcome.

I am still trying to not take a missed target as something personal (as I keep stuffing mags in the well.)

[co-exprs]

I practice, practice, practice at distance and know my holds intimately out to 600yds and in anything up to 15mph wind. Yet there are always a couple of targets at RM3G, which I just can't seem to connect with for some god forsaken reason. It is sooooo hard to let them go.

[Nimitz]

You are exactly right which why you need to do the math to see how long to give yourself before moving on. Otherwise, you are simply guessing or hoping that you did the right thing.

Here's a simple example: 2 USPSA targets are required to be shot. A total of 20 pts if you get 4 Alphas.

The first run results in 3 Charlie's and 1 Delta for a total of 10 pts shot in 2 secs. HF on the run is 5.0

The second run he gets 4 Alphas for 20 pts but takes 5 secs to do it. HF on that run is only 4.0

Clearly he was better off not spending as much time on the targets and giving up the results pts.

You won't KNOW unless you do the math ....

[MarkCO]

Let's just keep it in seconds. There are no major matches running Hit Factor scoring anymore, it is all Time-Plus. If the target is worth 10 seconds, 2 or 3 shots is the most you will be able to try before you will be forever in the hole. On the high value targets of 20 or 30 seconds, you can maybe shoot a few more. However, it is VERY rare to miss 3 or 4 shots and then "get it" unless you are dealing with wind or shooting over a high "lift" or "drag" feature and have a pretty good skill set.

BTW, never consider "bonus" targets as "bonus". The top shooters get them, so they are really "no penalty miss" at the best, but really still "required" targets if you want a good score. Also, realize some matches will give you a huge penalty for failure to make a "reasonable" attempt to hit a target. It is subjective, so ask the RO what they will do before you are on the clock.

[bushmeat]

Obviously the real answer is train so that you are able to make whatever kind of shots will be required of you. To plan to fail which is what you are doing when you want a plan for missing targets is counter productive

Not planning to fail, it's just that I've never shot over 225 yards before. RockCastle has had targets at twice that range and I'm not sure how to hit them other than to just hope the BDC markings on the scope are halfway accurate.

Hoping your BDC matches your ammo's ballistic drop is a guarantee for failure.

Chrono your ammo. Know that while 55 fmjs may be accurate out to 200, they are unpredictable at 400. So you may need 69s or 77s. The heavier bullets also give better feedback. ROs are human. You have better chances of them calling a hit if they can see the steel move or splash or hear the ring.

Once you have your velocity figures, input them into a ballistic program like JBM or Strelock. Compare the resultant drops to your reticle BDC subtentions. Know whether to hold on, high, low or bracket for a given distance.

Most MDs adhere to the 4MOA rule, so if you're doing everything right, you should get your hits. Good luck.

[MetropolisLake]

Pride only hurts, it never helps.

I'm just disappointed that nobody recognized my Pulp Fiction reference. LOL.

[steviesterno]

i watched this be devastating last match. It wasn't even long distance, but at this night match my buddy's laser wasn't dialed in right with his scope and he just couldn't hit a plate. He kept stuffing mags in and trying but timed out. Too bad for him, the rifle was the first part of the stage. Which meant he didn't shoot the pistol at all, taking 10 second misses and 5 second FTE for like 20 targets. His stage time of 270 ended up being worse than my whole match time, and we're usually equal shooters.

[Steve RA]

Personally, I always figured 2 misses and haul ass.

[JPeel]

Do not go to war with a long range target. If you know your ammo dope and your hold points for the optic and aren't hitting the target after 3 or 4 shots, there could be wind effects that you can't see. It was known as a swirling vortex of doom at a recent match causing normally dead on shooters to consider taking up golf.

[Jadeslade]

From a career sniper who runs and ROs a lot of matches. If you know your rifle is not zeroed, ie. missing a dead on shot at 100 or 200 yds, take one good shot at the remaining targets and move on. Forget about and fix the problem.

[latech15]

I don't know the answer to this question, but I have a "don't do this example"

Last three gun match - shots all the way out to 485. I hit them pretty much one for one even the 435 yard one in 65 seconds. Two reloads and a total time of 145 seconds later, I hit the last one at 480 and I think it was a gimmie by the RO. Did I mention that it was with my blackout shooting HO?

I honestly thought that it would be the next shot that would hit. My dope was on, I was prone, the trigger pull was good. I think the wind was doing things down range. I should have quit after three-four rounds. I still would have had the best time on my squad.