RAZZ Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I see a warning on the rifle targets section of MGM that says: "WARNING: PLEASE DO NOT SHOOT STEEL TARGETS WITH 'XM-193' AMMUNITION. SUCH AMMUNITION IS INTENDED TO PENETRATE STEEL AND WILL CAUSE SEVERE DAMAGE TO TARGETS, INCREASING THE LIKELYHOOD OF FAILURE AND PERSONAL INJURY. DAMAGE TO TARGETS RESULTING FROM THE USE OF 'XM-193' WILL NOT BE COVERED BY THE WARRANTY." I had never heard of of XM193 being AP or a penetrator round, and I see gobs of people using it in matches. Is this really an issue or just a CYA for MGM? Or were they thinking M855 green tip ammo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jacket Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I don't think XM-193 attracts a magnet I've shot it at a bunch of matches. You're right XP855 can't be shot at steel. I'd be interested to hear what others say as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 The velocity of XM193 is harder on steel, especially at close ranges. One year at Benning, everybody shot Larue targets at ~25 yards with an M249 and M855(sparks were flying while we were shooting). At the end of the match, I went and looked at the targets, there were not even any dimples in them. I have MGMs that I have put hundreds of hits on with 223 and 308 with only edge chips from edge hits. I shot one of them with some steel core 7.62x54R at 225yds with no damage. I have also cratered a couple of the same targets with 30.06 out of my Garand at 100yds. The damage from the Garand was with the target sitting behind a tire , with only the round portion exposed. I put rounds through the tire and they were the ones that cratered the target. MGM's site will warn you about shooting steel with magnum caliber rifles also. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) YES, the XM193 WILL damage AR500 targets, just did some shots on Sunday. The 855, ( I believe an AP round)NOT gonna shoot any of our steel with it after seeing what the 193 did. I'll post some pics later this computer doesn't seem to want to go there. We have shot these plates many many of times with Wolf, Tula, Brown Bear, Sliver Bear. from 50 -100yds. 2 different plates 1 shot each, you can see the dimple, those other hits are Tula FMJ Edited October 30, 2013 by toothandnail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock34shooter Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 MGM says not to shoot their steel at less than 150 yards. I have several MGM targets that I own at less than that. It is harder on them, but I look at targets as wearable items. I don't shoot my expensive targets with rifle up close but I shoot auto poppers regularly at 50 yards. They have survived four years of monthly matches. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Buy R&R targets and shoot what you want. Ask Busyhawk who had a bunch out at an Army range when he was in and they lasted for years with everything they shot at 'em. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 With all due respect Doug, let's not get carried away. We had shooters break a lot of targets, curl up a lot of targets and punch holes through targets at RM3G over the years, many of them R&Rs that are no longer used for rifle because they did not last. Regardless of the brand, some common sense and reasonable distances are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 AR500 is AR500, there are just a few MFG of AR500 steel in the US, it's not like one target maker has a supplier no one else can buy from. Either it meets the specs for AR500 or it's not AR500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 AR500 is AR500, there are just a few MFG of AR500 steel in the US, it's not like one target maker has a supplier no one else can buy from. Either it meets the specs for AR500 or it's not AR500. Yes and no. AR500 is abrasion resistance, not impact resistance. Be that as it is, there are different ways to get there and there are different metallurgical properties from various suppliers. Some is more brittle, some has more impact resistance, some has more ductility. It is not all equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I'm not so sure it's really an issue. We use about a dozen AR500 poppers at 100 yds for qualification. They get shot a LOT. All we use is xm193 and after many years they are not beat up. Sure they show a little use but far from what I'd call abnormal wear and tear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 With all due respect Doug, let's not get carried away. We had shooters break a lot of targets, curl up a lot of targets and punch holes through targets at RM3G over the years, many of them R&Rs that are no longer used for rifle because they did not last. Regardless of the brand, some common sense and reasonable distances are needed. I've seen the curled targets you are refering to and those were specificaly ordered to use at extended ranges. The targets were ordered with thinner skins than the normal R&R self setters so that they would react with light hits at long range. Instead of using them for the intended purpose they were used at closer range and the target faces were deformed. I agree that you need to use some common sense and the rifle steel targets used at RM3G are sometimes pretty close, like 65 yards. At that distance you can expect some significant damage espescially with lower quality targets. Doug R&R recomends a minimum distance of 100 for rifle but there are no restrictions on .223/5.56 ammunition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 What is needed is an independent test of the various targets. There are plenty of guys that say this is the best or that is the best but how about some objectivity and research. Be nice to see how they really stack up. Anybody interested? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 What is needed is an independent test of the various targets. There are plenty of guys that say this is the best or that is the best but how about some objectivity and research. Be nice to see how they really stack up. Anybody interested? Doug I'd be willing to do it. Say a 10" plate from MGM, Action, R&R. Who else? Maybe 5 types of ammo from .223 at 50, 75 and 100 yards. Label all the hits. Turn that plate around and do the same thing with .308. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 PM me with a shipping address and I'll have Robert send you a 10" Self Setter Skin. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 At the range recently I watched my buddy put an M855 round straight though his brand new 1/4" thick AR500 MGM target at 50yds. I've been doing some offhand 308 practice on a couple of off brand 10", 1/2" thick, AR500 targets at 150ish yds, all summer. Only used non penetrator core hand loads and each target has a few hundred 308 hits. Both targets are showing pretty serious wear. Even AR500 can only take so much abuse. Nothing escapes physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) With all due respect Doug, let's not get carried away. We had shooters break a lot of targets, curl up a lot of targets and punch holes through targets at RM3G over the years, many of them R&Rs that are no longer used for rifle because they did not last. Regardless of the brand, some common sense and reasonable distances are needed. I've seen the curled targets you are refering to and those were specificaly ordered to use at extended ranges. The targets were ordered with thinner skins than the normal R&R self setters so that they would react with light hits at long range. Instead of using them for the intended purpose they were used at closer range and the target faces were deformed. I agree that you need to use some common sense and the rifle steel targets used at RM3G are sometimes pretty close, like 65 yards. At that distance you can expect some significant damage espescially with lower quality targets. Doug R&R recomends a minimum distance of 100 for rifle but there are no restrictions on .223/5.56 ammunition. sorry for the thread drift, but... Those 12 inch diameter 1/4 inch thick targets were bought for longer distance, 300 yards+, trying to stay with the 4 moa ideal and to try to get better reaction with the light hits. They were NEVER put out less than about 280 yards! yet they still deformed. Even the hanging targets we now use we have built in the 12inch diameter 1/4 thick size are used at ONLY 300ish yards. as for the closer targets, 65 yards or so, we use exclusivly the 3/8 inch 10 inch diameter hanging targets for rifle, and the 3/8x12s we have are put out at 150-200 for off hand rifle shots, or sometimes 50+ yards for slugs jj Edited October 31, 2013 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter115 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 What is needed is an independent test of the various targets. There are plenty of guys that say this is the best or that is the best but how about some objectivity and research. Be nice to see how they really stack up. Anybody interested? Doug I'd be willing to do it. Say a 10" plate from MGM, Action, R&R. Who else? Maybe 5 types of ammo from .223 at 50, 75 and 100 yards. Label all the hits. Turn that plate around and do the same thing with .308. The trouble doing this test as stated is it really won't define anything on the large scale. Comparing one target from each manufacturer won't provide enough data to do an honest test, you would really need several that were manufactured at different times. As Mark stated, AR500 is an abrasion resistance spec, but there is still a range to that spec. The way steel is classified it has to fall within a range, but even with the same classification it will still have variances in hardness, stiffness and brittleness. The steel sheet your supplier brought on Wednesday may have slightly different properties from one brought in on Monday. And that holds true with any grade steel from A36 to AR500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 With all due respect Doug, let's not get carried away. We had shooters break a lot of targets, curl up a lot of targets and punch holes through targets at RM3G over the years, many of them R&Rs that are no longer used for rifle because they did not last. Regardless of the brand, some common sense and reasonable distances are needed. I've seen the curled targets you are refering to and those were specificaly ordered to use at extended ranges. The targets were ordered with thinner skins than the normal R&R self setters so that they would react with light hits at long range. Instead of using them for the intended purpose they were used at closer range and the target faces were deformed. I agree that you need to use some common sense and the rifle steel targets used at RM3G are sometimes pretty close, like 65 yards. At that distance you can expect some significant damage espescially with lower quality targets. Doug R&R recomends a minimum distance of 100 for rifle but there are no restrictions on .223/5.56 ammunition. sorry for the thread drift, but... Those 12 inch diameter 1/4 inch thick targets were bought for longer distance, 300 yards+, trying to stay with the 4 moa ideal and to try to get better reaction with the light hits. They were NEVER put out less than about 280 yards! yet they still deformed. Even the hanging targets we now use we have built in the 12inch diameter 1/4 thick size are used at ONLY 300ish yards. as for the closer targets, 65 yards or so, we use exclusivly the 3/8 inch 10 inch diameter hanging targets for rifle, and the 3/8x12s we have are put out at 150-200 for off hand rifle shots, or sometimes 50+ yards for slugs jj I was told the 1/4" targets were intended to use at 400+ yards. The R&R targets used at typical ranges are made of 3/8" plate. The extra 1/8" provides quite a bit of stiffness but also makes it 50% heavier. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Could it be a simple typo or error on the part of MGM? XM193 and M855 are two different things. At reasonable ranges I would expect a quality AR500 target to withstand one, but not the other. XM193 should be good to go, M855 not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I'm not aware of anyone in the competitive shooting community who is on a strict 193 diet. Here's the really cool thing about the MGM auto poppers that I like and use for my own personal practice. I punish the crap out of my targets with small and big guns, slugs, and just about anything one can imagine. In the 6 or 7 years I have been using them I have one showing signs of retirement. There is a small stress crack working across the narrow section above the hinge point and the impact zone. When I bought them I assumed responsibility for their treatment and use. Why? Most of my practice sessions are within 80 yards. They have nicks, dings, small impact craters but hold up to the whoopens! When one breaks I will call Trav's shop and place an order on my dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 M193 is a 55 fmj bullet at about 3200 fps. There is nothing special about it. M855 has a steel tip penetrator at 3100 all from 20". You can load 55 fmj to M193 specs without an issue. XM193 is the same as M193, its just the contract over run stuff. Same specs or possibly slightly off spec with regard to cyclic speed for some weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 As I understand it, M193 was about 150fps slower, XM193 was the military designation for an improved version. It uses an improved powder formula to achieve the current velocity, with less velocity loss in carbine barrels, and also a boat tail as opposed to the M193 flat base. Original M193 spec was along the lines of 3050 out of a 20in barrel. My rifle clocks that out of a 14.5 with XM193. Please correct me if I am mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I think you are all high. Everyone knows that the only thing that dames steel targets are being shot with guns that have scopes on them. If you are using a 6 power scope and shooting at a steel target that is 100 yards away the 6 power scope makes it only 16.66 yards away! That is way too close to be shooting at steel with any rifle! If you are using a scope the only safe way to shoot at steel is to take the max power of your scope and multiply it by 100 and set the target that many yards away, or just shoot non magnified. Or use a Red Rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I think you are all high. Everyone knows that the only thing that dames steel targets are being shot with guns that have scopes on them. If you are using a 6 power scope and shooting at a steel target that is 100 yards away the 6 power scope makes it only 16.66 yards away! That is way too close to be shooting at steel with any rifle! If you are using a scope the only safe way to shoot at steel is to take the max power of your scope and multiply it by 100 and set the target that many yards away, or just shoot non magnified. Or use a Red Rider. Drinking early again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 There is no way to drink all day unless one starts in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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