FTDMFR Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 If you move a foot (or both feet) when at slide lock, but you catch yourself and step back to your original position to reload, is that still a PE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Model19 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I think the scorer is going to have to watch the feet. I'll be busy watching the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 If you move a foot (or both feet) when at slide lock, but you catch yourself and step back to your original position to reload, is that still a PE? IDPA has become a dance more that a shooting game. It would be up to the SO because there is not a printed rule about it. Sorta like different S0's have different opinion's of what is cover and what is not. Add another grey area to IDPA shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) If you move a foot (or both feet) when at slide lock, but you catch yourself and step back to your original position to reload, is that still a PE? It would appear that If you move one foot you're ok. You don't move your pivot (second) foot so you haven't advanced in any way. Move both feet and you'll see that finger rise in your peripheral. I've never participated in any shooting sport until a 6 months ago. I'm lucky to get 2 matches in a month and I'm still unclassified for ESP. For those reasons, I'll usually keep my mouth shut at matches and try to absorb what I can from more experienced shooters. I still make a lot of mistakes due to brain farts but chalk it up to inexperience under pressure. Edited October 16, 2013 by v1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johes Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Does any one have an idea as to what the tigers thought this rule accomplishes? Or is it like so many of our other rules, "so we won't be like U----A". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Does any one have an idea as to what the tigers thought this rule accomplishes? Or is it like so many of our other rules, "so we won't be like U----A". I've heard that they needed to make up this rule because they eliminated the round dumping rule, which no one EVER called a PE for, and because they added that "cover goes to infinity".. They didn't want people moving behind "infinite" cover and reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Well, I can tell you why they say they made the change. Or at least why the leadership of IDPA says they made the change. They say they talked to Navy Seals, Rangers, tactical trainers etc. and those people all agreed they would not leave a position without a fully charged weapon. Of course, if this is true (and we are looking to the Seals for guidance), it's unclear why IDPA doesn't require shooters to do a tac reload before moving to any new shooting position? That's what Seals would do, according to IDPA. Instead, the new rules actually encourage a shooter to move without a fully-charged weapon. It is generally going to be more advantageous to move with 1 or 2 rounds in your gun, than it is to reload - since we can no longer do tac reloads on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johes Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 (edited) IDPA is still the best game going for me so I guess I'll have to get used to it. At least round dumping is gone. I'm probably alone on this, but it would make it easier for me as an SO and more fun as a shooter if the entire reload section read "reload as necessary". Of course that would really make us like.......Them! Edited October 19, 2013 by johes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Well, I can tell you why they say they made the change. Or at least why the leadership of IDPA says they made the change. They say they talked to Navy Seals, Rangers, tactical trainers etc. and those people all agreed they would not leave a position without a fully charged weapon. Of course, if this is true (and we are looking to the Seals for guidance), it's unclear why IDPA doesn't require shooters to do a tac reload before moving to any new shooting position? That's what Seals would do, according to IDPA. Instead, the new rules actually encourage a shooter to move without a fully-charged weapon. It is generally going to be more advantageous to move with 1 or 2 rounds in your gun, than it is to reload - since we can no longer do tac reloads on the move. The number of kittens who have died due to this post truly brings tears to my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johes Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 At least the words " re_l l_f_" we're avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetrulis01 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Consulted navy seals...listen...if your gun runs dry and you need to move to another position and you are behind cover of course you can move and reload. Yes you would not go out in the open without a loaded gun. But if I am behind a wall the whole way...yes I am reloading on the move. If they wanted to be like the navy seals..then a tac reload before you move everytime. This a stupid rule, not as real life as they think it is, and they have to remember it is still a game. IDPA has taken almost all the free thinking out of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhp147 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) So, if movement to the next position requires that someone turn to change direction, to say, laterally move to the other end of the wall and shoot...the shooter can reload and pivot at the same time as said shooter is not advancing, lifting, or sliding. Not sure if I'm asking a question or making an observation. W.W.A.S.D.? Edited October 22, 2013 by sheepdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Consulted navy seals...listen...if your gun runs dry and you need to move to another position and you are behind cover of course you can move and reload. Yes you would not go out in the open without a loaded gun. But if I am behind a wall the whole way...yes I am reloading on the move. If they wanted to be like the navy seals..then a tac reload before you move everytime. This a stupid rule, not as real life as they think it is, and they have to remember it is still a game. IDPA has taken almost all the free thinking out of the sport. This is so true. They've taken away one of the few choices a shooter could make on some stages. But in the end, it's their game to do with as they please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 this last weekend I backed up away from cover and sliced a big piece of pie to engage a target, then dumped my last 3 rounds into it. I was caught in the open with a empty gun, so I initiated my mad dash reload to the next shooting position. don't get caught in the open with a empty gun or you will have to reload on the move to get to cover again. and don't crowd cover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Model19 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 this last weekend I backed up away from cover and sliced a big piece of pie to engage a target, then dumped my last 3 rounds into it. I was caught in the open with a empty gun, so I initiated my mad dash reload to the next shooting position. don't get caught in the open with a empty gun or you will have to reload on the move to get to cover again. and don't crowd cover Such poor tactics! And so clever !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 this last weekend I backed up away from cover and sliced a big piece of pie to engage a target, then dumped my last 3 rounds into it. I was caught in the open with a empty gun, so I initiated my mad dash reload to the next shooting position. don't get caught in the open with a empty gun or you will have to reload on the move to get to cover again. and don't crowd coverI think I'm missing something...does not crowding cover mean you're "in the open" and can initiate a reload while moving?Also, you said you "dumped the last three rounds" into the target. If the target only called for two, why not "make a mad dash" to the next shooting position and reload there after firing the last round? I'd like to hear more about the "tactic"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 this last weekend I backed up away from cover and sliced a big piece of pie to engage a target, then dumped my last 3 rounds into it. I was caught in the open with a empty gun, so I initiated my mad dash reload to the next shooting position. don't get caught in the open with a empty gun or you will have to reload on the move to get to cover again. and don't crowd cover If you backed away from cover to the point where after you were finished shooting the target you were "caught in the open" Then you should have gotten a PE for leaving cover, and I'd hit you with another one for advancing during a reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Model19 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Wait wait, let's game this out. No rule says you have to be X distance from cover, does it? And there are some benefits to spacing yourself futher rather than closer to your cover as you engage targets. So in this case he backed away from the cover, call it a wall corner for example. Say you back off 8 feet from the wall, you slice the pie correctly, engaging all targets as they become visible and you neutralize them. As long as you have not exposed yourself to any other targets anywhere, what rules have you broken? You may end up 8' out and away from the end of the wall depending on where the targets are. Picture a bicycle wheel. The end of the wall is the axle, and the farther you go along out a spoke towards the rim the more you will move as you rotate around the axle. More linear distance but the number of degrees remain the same. This may take some rules studying and pondering. It may be a legit idea not disallowed in the rules. In a strictly gamer sense anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Actually, the new rules do say that a shooter who runs dry in the open may initiate an emergency reload while advancing to the next position of cover. (Sec. 3.8) However, when slicing the pie, you are still behind cover when you finish shooting the last target. So you could easily pick up Procedural penalty for emptying your gun at that point and then reloading while running to the next position. The rules are clear that you cannot leave a position of cover while reloading. I've been trying to figure out other ways where this could come into play. The one way it seems possible is if you have a stage that requires you to shoot while moving in the open. Say you have to cross from one set of barrels to another, while engaging 3 targets. It seems to me that it would be within the rules to quickly empty your gun into those three targets (while you are in the open) and then do your reload on your way to the next cover position. I don't see many stages popping up like this. And even when they do, how many times would the ammo count work out to be advantageous? Not often, I'm betting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgulley Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 tbarker13 hit the nail on the head. If you were behind cover while firing the last shot you may not advance until you reload.Now, if you had neutralized all the threats before leaving cover and then fired extra, unneccessary shots while advancing...... I don't know. There's no rule against round dumping now, is there? Could be FTDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 tbarker13 hit the nail on the head. If you were behind cover while firing the last shot you may not advance until you reload. Now, if you had neutralized all the threats before leaving cover and then fired extra, unneccessary shots while advancing...... I don't know. There's no rule against round dumping now, is there? Could be FTDR. But even if you have neutralized all of the targets from behind a cover position, it would still be a problem to leave cover with an unloaded gun. That's been the source of a large chunk of the PE's I've seen at matches. The classic example is the shooter who has just sliced the pie at an open doorway and finds himself at slidelock. The shooter must complete his reload before stepping across that open doorway - even if every target seen through that doorway has been neutralized. The new reload rules don't change that. They just restrict what we can do when we are behind larger stretches of cover. No more tac reloads while moving from one end of a wall to the other end, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgulley Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I understand what you're saying but the scenario I presented would have all the threats neutralized and the shooter advancing while shooting extra shots simply to empty the gun and take the opportunity to reload on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I understand what you're saying but the scenario I presented would have all the threats neutralized and the shooter advancing while shooting extra shots simply to empty the gun and take the opportunity to reload on the move. I see what you are saying. I suppose the shooter would have to wait until he is on the move and in the open before emptying the gun. Since round dumping is not illegal, this should be a legal strategy. Of course, someone is going to come along (here or at a match) and say something about violating the "spirit of IDPA." Of course that little term is about as easy to define as pornography. Just another chunk of gray area where the IDPA braintrust will have to offer some guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) round dumping is now legal in the game. I could be standing 30 feet behind cover and if I slice the pie correctly, i'm still behind cover and in the open with a slide lock gun. correct??? the local club likes to do stages with you facing the 3 equal distance targets and at the buzzer, you engage in tactical sequence while backing up with a wall to your right side. when you get to the end of the wall, you will have a target about 15 feet away with you looking down a wall before you can really see it to engage it. the new rules say you can't do a tac reload while moving behind cover. if you slice the pie kind of wide, then you can engage the target from the full distance at beginning of the wall and run the gun empty (I was running CDP) and do a running reload to get back to cover at the end of the wall, because I was out in open when gun ran empty. I've told the local match organizers that the only way they could make the new rules really apply, and keep people like me from using the rule book to game a stage, would be to do away with walls, and just start using bianchi size barricades for cover for every shooting position. That or IDPA headquarters do awayy with the flat foot rule. after this last weekend, I've decided that I will start to shoot my revo at the IDPA matches again from now on (I ran very low of federal primers for the last 3 months, but have just got restocked). I could have run it empty in the first two steps of the discussed stage and would have been hauling around the end of the wall, since I can reload it before I even got to the end of the wall. Edited October 23, 2013 by JohnRodriguez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 The tiger teams dropped the ball on this one... sorry... when they get their head out of their ass I'll consider renewing my license.... I suspect that this rule was written before the Tiger Teams were ever chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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