Moltke Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Are we splitting hairs here, is this semantics, or is there something that I'm not understanding? I get the increase your grip strength with exercise, so you can naturally grip the pistol more - but what am I missing about tight vs tense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 A "tight" or firm grip is a one thing. That's all it is; a firm grip won't cause problems. Being tense is completely different though. You can't do anything well if you are tense. What we call "tension" means tightening the antagonistic (muscles that are not required to perform an activity) muscles. If you tighten your triceps sufficiently while trying to lift a pen off a table, you won't be able to lift the pen. Apply that filter to every movement you do when drawing and shooting. Tension typically only emerges when shooting a stage in a match. When we are trying to shoot faster than we need to, or when we are just too jacked up from match anxiety. When shooting a match stage with a firm (not tense) grip, the sights will track up and smoothly back down just like they do in practice. When we are shooting a match stage while we are too tense though, the sights will bobble around like they are on the end of a pogo stick - the front sight seldom coming smoothly to rest dead center in the rear notch, like it does on practice. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hukdizzle Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I started grip training about a month ago with CoC and various other methods and now I find that when shooting my new XDM 5.25 my mags are falling out of my gun when I grip it firmly. I am not hitting the mag release buttons and the gun only has 200 rounds through it so the mag release button is still very tough to push so I highly doubt my support hand index finger or palm heel is hitting the release. Anyone ever seen where this would start happening when they started gripping the handgun with a stronger shooting grip? I guess the recoil forces are more abrupt and are causing the magazine catch to fail. It does it on all 3 of my magazines and I can stop it from doing it when I "limp wrist" the gun and don't grip it with a death grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I wonder if you are flexing the frame enough to let the mag catch slip(but it still shouldn't). I use COC grippers too, and shoot a Glock. The Trugrip tape on my gun will get a wrinkle in it when I grip it. So I figure the frame is flexing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 You may be flexing the frame. I used to have the opposite problem with my CZ years ago. I had to get really rigid grip panels or I would flex them in and keep the mag from dropping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I started grip training about a month ago with CoC and various other methods and now I find that when shooting my new XDM 5.25 my mags are falling out of my gun when I grip it firmly. I am not hitting the mag release buttons and the gun only has 200 rounds through it so the mag release button is still very tough to push so I highly doubt my support hand index finger or palm heel is hitting the release. Anyone ever seen where this would start happening when they started gripping the handgun with a stronger shooting grip? I guess the recoil forces are more abrupt and are causing the magazine catch to fail. It does it on all 3 of my magazines and I can stop it from doing it when I "limp wrist" the gun and don't grip it with a death grip.Most likely you're making contact with one of the mag release buttons. I've been shooting XD's for a number of years, and have never heard of this happening because of a hard grip on the gun. But, if you're convinced it's not you, send the gun back to Springfield Armory. Call 1st, and they will send you a free shipping label. The repair work is free, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hukdizzle Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 It's so tough to say honestly especially since there are two points where I could be hitting the button instead of one with the ambi release. The magazine catch design is kind of a poor design and not very robust. The only thing holding the magazines in is a small 1/32" protrusion that snaps into the mag. Other designs with a single side release are much more robust due to the cross bolt style design which retains the mag with a much larger surface contact area. Any tolerance issues or excessive wear and I could see the SA design fail. I took apart my mags today and took the slide off the gun and took a look at the engagement of each mag with the mag catch and I found that one of my mags fits looser in the gun than the other two and it also doesn't get the same amount of engagement from the mag catch that the other two do as well. I took a small punch and tweaked the top lip of the mag catch engagement hole on each mag to ensure maximum engagement. Hopefully it helps, I may take it back up to the range today and put a box of ammo through it. I am still not ruling out my grip at all on this but it seems so tough to actually get my fingers to hit the mag release with any reasonable force during my live fire, I am still using the OEM size mag release. I have a normal grip and the only thing I can see that would even have the possibility of releasing the magazine would be my support hand index finger tip pushing down on the webbing between my strong hand trigger and middle finger. Here is a pic for explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 That 'could' do it, especially during recoil. You could try moving the finger tips down to where you are pushing on the strong hand finger bones and see if the magazine still falls out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hukdizzle Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 After the mag tweaking and going back to the range I put a box and a half down the range 4 or 5 rounds at a time testing each mag. At first I could only get the mag with the loose tolerances to fail and fall out of the gun but then I was able to get one of the other mags to do it as well. After tweaking all the mags they are without a doubt fully engaging the mag catch now so I have to attribute it to my grip. Two times when I noticed the mag fall out I realized that the magazine release button moved ever so slightly back into it's at rest position directly after the mag fell out so I guess it is me. It appears that during the recoil cycle with my tightest grip my support hand index finger is applying enough pressure to my strong hand skin to depress the mag release just enough for it to fail to retain the mag. This really bothers me because I have made a very conscious effort to ensure that my grip is as high on the gun as it could be and that my wrist angle is correct. If I move my support hand fingers down it in effect will be a lower/weaker grip and won't be natural with a proper wrist angle. /endrant! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyGlock Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 If this is happening as the gun fires it could mean you are convulsing your grip in anticipation to the recoil. This could be a sign of a flinch w/c should be cured. Then get a Glock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hukdizzle Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 If this is happening as the gun fires it could mean you are convulsing your grip in anticipation to the recoil. This could be a sign of a flinch w/c should be cured. Then get a Glock It very well could be, I am working on front sight focus and it's going well and I am starting to see the sights lift but I could be flinching possibly. I need to do some random snap cap practice to see. Funny you should mention the glock. I left the range today disgusted and went straight to the counter to look at a gen 4 34 haha. Nice guns and if all else fails with the xdm platform I will be giving the 34 gen 4 a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 That's just weird, not that you're weird as a person, of course. Although I'm a XD fan, maybe switching to a different brand of gun is the answer, but I'm guessing you'll run into the same problem again one day. I would try to figure things out with the XD 1st before moving on to a different gun. I still think it's you and not the gun, but to rule out all possibilities I would send the gun back to Springfield Armory, but with unaltered mags, of course. I hate to ask a stupid question, but are you sure you are seating the mags properly. I know that fully loaded XD mags can be bugger to seat sometimes, especially if the gun is new. To get back on topic. I know from experience some weird and unintentional things can happened when we 1st start putting a hard grip on the gun. Although I'm still working out my hands for grip strength, and I think it's important for practical shooting, I'm trying to get away from having notions of putting a hard grip on the gun. I find I'm better off with a firm, balanced and neutral grip. Sure, I'm gripping the gun harder than I use to, but that's coming on naturally as my grip strength improves. Just my thoughts, who knows if I'm right about it. I'm still trying to figure out a lot of this stuff, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hukdizzle Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) I let one of the SO's shoot the gun at the range and it didn't happen but the guy shot it with some weird weak grip with his support hand UNDER the magazine cradling his strong hand so that was no measure of what is going on. My next IDPA match is on the 20th and I can have several of my competitors shoot it prior to the match and see if we can make it happen. Mags weren't really altered, the lip of the mag catch hole on each mag was bent every so slightly (couple thousandths at most) so that it would catch a bit more on the mag catch. Last resort is to send it back to SA right now and that won't happen until I can rule myself out as the issue. SA is literally slammed with the XDS recall right now and it could be months before I get my 5.25 back with the work load their shop has right now and who knows what kind of quality the work would be with them being pushed so much. If I do find that the gun does it with other shooters I will order a brand new mag catch and install it myself. I have torn the gun apart before and do all my own trigger work so even though it is literally a "nightmare" as described by other gunsmiths to replace I am sure I can handle it with a slave pin. There is without a doubt a lack of uniformity to my grip strength right now finger wise. My support hand index and middle finger are exerting higher force than my ring and pinky finger. It will all normalize eventually but right now that's how strength is building in my hands and applying it is honestly rough motor control due to the new found strength and working through the soreness. I have been focusing on having a firm but overall "relaxed" grip with my strong hand and clamping down basically as tight as I can with my support hand. If for nothing else than ingraining the idea that the support hand has to grip harder than the strong hand and it will help me develop strength by doing this that will transfer over to my subconscious shooting during a match hopefully. Edited October 7, 2013 by hukdizzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hukdizzle Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 This will be my last post cluttering up this thread with gun malfunction nonsense but I just wanted to say that SA customer service is awesome. I called them today and described my issue and advised them that I would like to try and replace my magazine catch in my gun before sending it back if possible and they said they would send one along with a pin and spring out today for me free of charge per the warranty. That's awesome service! Now if I do find that the gun is at fault I can at least try the mag catch replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 To get back on topic. I know from experience some weird and unintentional things can happened when we 1st start putting a hard grip on the gun. Although I'm still working out my hands for grip strength, and I think it's important for practical shooting, I'm trying to get away from having notions of putting a hard grip on the gun. I find I'm better off with a firm, balanced and neutral grip. Sure, I'm gripping the gun harder than I use to, but that's coming on naturally as my grip strength improves. Just my thoughts, who knows if I'm right about it. I'm still trying to figure out a lot of this stuff, too. That all worked well for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 After a lot of personal testing, and testing other shooters who have better or worse recoil management abilities I have found that if you want supreme recoil management while shooting Major PF ammo in a Limited gun you need about 150+ lbs of grip strengh in each hand. And the more grip strength the better. In my own personal findings I have found that the greater my maximum grip strength is the less I have to conciously grip the gun "hard" to properly manage the recoil and still maintain dextarity in my trigger finger. I have a maxmium grip strength of over 200lbs on each hand, and for me a normal "Firm" grip is more than enough to virtually eliminate muzzle flip and crank out ultra fast splits. Another benifit of having very good grip strength is the ability to shoot one handed without the gun muzzle flipping excessively and displacing the gun off target. I think the overall "How much grip strength do you need" question really depends on the Division you are shooting. If you are shooting Minor PF Production or Open it obviously takes less grip strength to properly manage the recoil verses Major PF Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Anyone just tried flaring their elbows up a little instead of gripping tighter? I just recently started doing this (past 2 weeks) and it's naturally pinching the gun tighter without increasing the actual grip on the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) Anyone just tried flaring their elbows up a little instead of gripping tighter? I just recently started doing this (past 2 weeks) and it's naturally pinching the gun tighter without increasing the actual grip on the gun. http://www.dillonprecision.com/articles.html There is an interesting article by Duane Thomas in the 2013 November Blue Press. Shootng Tip: Isometric Tension & Arm Position. Edited October 10, 2013 by toothguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I did a class yesterday with TGO. He said to grip as tightly as possible with BOTH hands. He told us the "60/40 split" was silly, and that it should be "100/100". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagi Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Yup... Jet told me 100% all the way... both hands...but not to the point you are shaking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I did a class yesterday with TGO. He said to grip as tightly as possible with BOTH hands. He told us the "60/40 split" was silly, and that it should be "100/100". That is the only thing that worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 I did a class yesterday with TGO. He said to grip as tightly as possible with BOTH hands. He told us the "60/40 split" was silly, and that it should be "100/100". That is the only thing that worked for me. Me too...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 Yup... Jet told me 100% all the way... both hands...but not to the point you are shaking...Yeah, I'm not recommending that you grip until you shake, it was more of a "What happens if?" experiment. I wanted to see how an over tight grip affects the shooting. It's definitely not how I would shoot a match!The interesting point was how little effect the exaggerated hard grip alone had on trigger manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Rules Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingmedicine Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Obviously after reading this, I gotta start trying some new grips. It's my biggest weakness.... Great info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now