Shot through barrel, or ricochet?

[waktasz]

If a target placed near a barrel has a large, abnormally shaped hole in it, and you can see a partial crown/grease ring, but it can't be determined if the bullet wholly passed through the barrel or just hit the side and skipped off, what is the call?

What if there's no grease ring at all?

Edited August 6, 2013 by waktasz

[juan]

are the barrels soft cover

if not you got to tape the barrel

Edited August 7, 2013 by juan

[JAFO]

9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet

diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence

within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown”

etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet

or splatter.

[sperman]

If it can't be determined that the bullet passed fully through hardcover, the shooter gets the hit.

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.1.6.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure (see Section.4.6). The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

9.1.6.3 If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to strike the scoring area of a paper target, the hit on that paper target will count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.1.6.4 If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to strike down a scoring metal target, the fallen target will count for score. If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to strike down or hit a metal no-shoot, the fallen no-shoot or hit thereon will count for penalty.

[Nik Habicht]

Ideally barrels would be treated as soft cover -- realistically that rarely happens....

Barrels as hard cover are a scoring nightmare -- and require very careful taping.....

If you want to score the target as a miss, the RO will need to be able to determine that the full diameter hit passed through the barrel. If the RO can't determine what happened/can't determine an accurate score, then reshoot.....

[Nik Habicht]

If it can't be determined that the bullet passed fully through hardcover, the shooter gets the hit.

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.1.6.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure (see Section.4.6). The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

9.1.6.3 If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to strike the scoring area of a paper target, the hit on that paper target will count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.1.6.4 If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to strike down a scoring metal target, the fallen target will count for score. If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to strike down or hit a metal no-shoot, the fallen no-shoot or hit thereon will count for penalty.

Right rules, but I don't think the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt in the absence of being able to determine a full diameter hit. If the RO wants to score the hole in the target as a hit, he needs to both find evidence supporting that a bullet made the hole, and that that bulled only struck partially within the hard cover.....

If no determination can be made on partial/full hit on hardcover, then a reshoot is in order. If no portion of a bullet ogive, crown, grease mark can be found on the target -- well, that's a miss.....

[sperman]

... you can see a partial crown/grease ring,...

My response was based on evidence of a hit on the target.

As the shooter, I would argue that the RO would need to prove the bullet went fully through hardcover. If the barrel looks like swiss cheese, that's going to be pretty tough to do. I would argue against a reshoot because you can't say for sure that the bullet went fully through hard cover. If you want to know for sure where the bullet went, properly maintain the COF (I've never seen this done at a L1 match.) If you can't prove the bullet went through hard cover, then you have to assume it is a good hit. That's my opinion, anyway.

[deacon12224]

... you can see a partial crown/grease ring,...

My response was based on evidence of a hit on the target.

As the shooter, I would argue that the RO would need to prove the bullet went fully through hardcover. If the barrel looks like swiss cheese, that's going to be pretty tough to do. I would argue against a reshoot because you can't say for sure that the bullet went fully through hard cover. If you want to know for sure where the bullet went, properly maintain the COF (I've never seen this done at a L1 match.) If you can't prove the bullet went through hard cover, then you have to assume it is a good hit. That's my opinion, anyway.

As I understand the scoring principles of USPSA, we never assume anything. If something can't be determined from the evidence presented on the targets, you must reshoot the COF.

[High Lord Gomer]

At our last level 1 match in the stage briefing I declared that the barrels were soft cover and reminded shooters that hits would only score if there was a visible arc of the bullet going through the target.

I worked an Area 6 match with hardcover barrels and don't want to do that again. We had to dedicate an RO to stand behind the shooter and watch which key targets were shot from where. We didn't tape but rather painted the blue barrels with black paint so it was obvious when you had a new crease or hole in a barrel.

[GuildSF4]

... you can see a partial crown/grease ring,...

My response was based on evidence of a hit on the target.

As the shooter, I would argue that the RO would need to prove the bullet went fully through hardcover. If the barrel looks like swiss cheese, that's going to be pretty tough to do. I would argue against a reshoot because you can't say for sure that the bullet went fully through hard cover. If you want to know for sure where the bullet went, properly maintain the COF (I've never seen this done at a L1 match.) If you can't prove the bullet went through hard cover, then you have to assume it is a good hit. That's my opinion, anyway.

The below applies, if there is no evidence of a hit then it is a miss. If the barrels (when considered hard cover) are not maintained and a valid score cannot be determined - reshoot. (Hard to show where it hit the hard cover without maintaining the hardcover.)

(Full diameter hit with no grease mark hit something else before it hit the target, be it hard cover, a stick or soft cover.)

9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet

diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence

within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown”

etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet

or splatter.

[MarkCO]

Just don't use barrels for vision barriers! There are better solutions. If you want hardcover, use steel painted black. Or pallets covered with cardboard painted black if splatter and or distance are an issue. Barrels strikes are a pain to score, keep pasted/painted and they are dangerous. I have seen three bullets enter and come back and hit people hard enough to cause injury needing medical attention, several hits and minor cuts too. I've also seen shooters cut rubbing against the sharp edges created by the bullet strikes. Right at the shooting position is usually not an issue, but move them 3 yards away or more, and the problems come to roost.

[sperman]

reading 9.5.5, if the enlarged hole contains a grease ring or a crown, shouldn't it count for score?

[GuildSF4]

reading 9.5.5, if the enlarged hole contains a grease ring or a crown, shouldn't it count for score?

Yes it does. Just clarifying that it must contain evidence of a hit or it is a miss.

Edited August 7, 2013 by GuildSF4

[Poppa Bear]

Just don't use barrels for vision barriers! There are better solutions. If you want hardcover, use steel painted black. Or pallets covered with cardboard painted black if splatter and or distance are an issue. Barrels strikes are a pain to score, keep pasted/painted and they are dangerous. I have seen three bullets enter and come back and hit people hard enough to cause injury needing medical attention, several hits and minor cuts too. I've also seen shooters cut rubbing against the sharp edges created by the bullet strikes. Right at the shooting position is usually not an issue, but move them 3 yards away or more, and the problems come to roost.

I Like to use barrels as vision barriers, but it is more a case of you can see the target from position A but not from position B because the barrel blocks your view while allowing other targets to remain visible. A neat idea I got from your post though would be to screw a couple pieces of lath to the barrel and then place black cardboard on the lath. The barrel gives you the stability and substance to block splatter if you are hiding a piece of steel, while the cardboard gives you the clean surface to score hits on. I can see the same thing for barrels creating vision barriers for paper targets. You want to keep them from breaking the 180 so you screw the cardboard to the barrel so that it obscures the target when they get to around the 160 area.

edited to strike the black. Cardboard can be a No Shoot, Hard cover, or soft cover.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Poppa Bear

[Bergie]

Cardboard can be a No Shoot, Hard cover, or soft cover.

plain cardboard cannot be a no-shoot...it must be a paper or steel target.

[Poppa Bear]

Cardboard can be a No Shoot, Hard cover, or soft cover.

plain cardboard cannot be a no-shoot...it must be a paper or steel target.

True, but our current targets are made out of cardboard. What I did not make clear is the use of standard NS target, or rectangular pieces for HC. I do not see a real need to use cardboard as soft cover. If you tape it or not you start to leave an easy aim point for later shooters. At least as HC or as a NS it assesses a penalty.

[juan]

reading 9.5.5, if the enlarged hole contains a grease ring or a crown, shouldn't it count for score?

Yes it does. Just clarifying that it must contain evidence of a hit or it is a miss.

is not a big ass hole evidence of a hit?

or did it just majicly appear.

[Nik Habicht]

... you can see a partial crown/grease ring,...

My response was based on evidence of a hit on the target.

As the shooter, I would argue that the RO would need to prove the bullet went fully through hardcover. If the barrel looks like swiss cheese, that's going to be pretty tough to do. I would argue against a reshoot because you can't say for sure that the bullet went fully through hard cover. If you want to know for sure where the bullet went, properly maintain the COF (I've never seen this done at a L1 match.) If you can't prove the bullet went through hard cover, then you have to assume it is a good hit. That's my opinion, anyway.

No, actually there's no benefit of the doubt -- and it's why I passionately hate barrels as hard cover.

I don't have to "assume it was a good hit" if I can't prove that it was a full diameter hit through the barrel. If I have any doubt as to my ability to accurately score the target, a reshoot is in order. Guessing in either direction isn't fair to any of the competitors in the division....

[Nik Habicht]

reading 9.5.5, if the enlarged hole contains a grease ring or a crown, shouldn't it count for score?

Sure -- unless that round fully (full diameter) passed through hard cover on the way....

[Nik Habicht]

reading 9.5.5, if the enlarged hole contains a grease ring or a crown, shouldn't it count for score?

Yes it does. Just clarifying that it must contain evidence of a hit or it is a miss.

is not a big ass hole evidence of a hit?

or did it just majicly appear.

No, the big hole could have been caused by a piece of plastic torn loose from barrel by the shot.....

Think wad puncturing target on a shotgun slug stage. We don't score the wad hits either....

[Poppa Bear]

If the barrel has multiple holes in it already it is possible for the bullet to pass through a shot out area and leave a partial grease ring even if it did pass wholly through the barrel.

[Bunchies95]

Whenever I use barrels to obscure a target, I paint hard cover in the area where a bullet through the barrel will impact. Sure it takes more work, but no scoring issues of does it or does it not count for score.

[JFlowers]

At the Area 6 in ... 1994 maybe .... I was on the stage "Barrel Yard". My sole job was to carry a big knife and a roll of duct tape and repair the barrels after each shooter (if needed).

[Thomas H]

I put a lot of duct tape on barrels at the recent A3 match. IF you stay on top of it, AND IF the stage design makes shooting angles obvious, barrels work just fine as hard cover.

IMO, of course.