Which would be likely to further increase participation in Revolver Di

[Nik Habicht]

In another thread, Bill Nesbitt wondered what might make revolvers commonly used in IDPA more competitive in USPSA, specifically 6 shot revolvers in .38/.357 Magnum. That got me to wondering: Which of the above two choices do you think would increase participation more? Allowing a change to Major 6/Minor 8, or making the division minor scoring only? Discuss.....

[Blueridge]

I voted for the 6 major/8 minor choice. Making everything minor does not seem to me a choice that benefits general revolver participation. It might just cause an uproar among those who currently or will want to shoot major for the better point values.

[Racinready300ex]

I didn't vote, I have no idea which would be better. Both seem like they could be good idea's but I don't know how to tell which would really do better. I would guess the addition of 8 shot would do more. Other wise I think you would see at least some 6 shot minor guys shooting at club level match's.

[bdpaz]

Nothing will make IDPA revolvers popular in USPSA. 6 shot revolver isn't fun now and using speed loaders makes it even less appealing.

And I have nothing against 6 shooters & speed loaders. I have started using .45 Auto Rim & speed loaders to shoot my 625 in ICORE's Classic division.

[lee blackman]

Alot of shooters crossover from sports. Shooting is just like any other market. When the money is where the demand is. Find the biggest market and give them an incentive to come. Maybe look for the most crowded division in ICORE, and mirror the USPSA rules to allow cross over.

[sbcman]

.

Edited June 27, 2013 by sbcman

[Bill Nesbitt]

Some attendance figures from recent big IDPA matches:

2013 Carolina Cup: SSR 25 ESR 8

2013 Indoor Nationals: SSR 30 ESR 18

2012 Outdoor Nationals: SSR 17 ESR 13

2012 Carolina Cup: SSR 17 ESR 10

If Jerry isn't there, many times the best score will be in SSR.

There will always be a perceived advantage to moon clips, even if I think speed loaders can run neck and neck with moon clips.

[Carmoney]

IDPA is not a valid comparison--that game is built around short courses that are supposed to be roughly 6-round neutral.

Shooting complex USPSA field stages with a 6-shot revolver and speedloaders is a whole different deal altogether. I could certainly do it, but it does not sound at all fun to me.

[Nik Habicht]

And that's why I'm asking the question -- I have no individual stake, but as a past match director, and current Section Coordinator I do have a stake in the sense that any change will potentially affect participation at Section Clubs.

I don't know, as of right now, what to argue, when I contact my AD -- so please keep the opinions flowing.....

[mmauk]

2013 Virginia state idpa

6 esr 3 ssr

2012

8 esr 7 ssr

[Cd662]

Bill, there's also a big difference between shooting 105 PF out of a speedloader fed gun and shooting 165 out of a 4 inch gun, and as Mike mentioned, the structure of IDPA is around dictated areas of reload. Moonclips are a lot easier to deal with while moving, you minimize the risk of cases stuck under the ejector star, you get your brass back, etc etc.

[Nik Habicht]

IDPA is not a valid comparison--that game is built around short courses that are supposed to be roughly 6-round neutral.

Shooting complex USPSA field stages with a 6-shot revolver and speedloaders is a whole different deal altogether. I could certainly do it, but it does not sound at all fun to me.

Good point on IDPA......

What's cheaper: 686 plus moon clip modification or 625? There's nothing in the rules preventing someone from setting a .38/.357 up for moonclips, and it's possible to do the work on K and L frames, right?

[lugnut]

I'm leaning towards 8rnd minor, 6 rnd major. If you change it to all minor scoring- why would anyone shoot a 625 for example? I guess you could say why would anyone shoot a 686 or 66 though as well... but at least it's minor.

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I like opening it up to 8 round minor, 6 round major. Sure 627s have a leg up on 66s but hell I just don't think there are perfect answers to this ONE division... and I don't think more divisions is a reasonable answer at this point.

Edited June 28, 2013 by lugnut

[Bones]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

[smith52]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

I think Craig hit the nail on the head here. Eight shot minor is catering to a single firearm.

[lugnut]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

I think Craig hit the nail on the head here. Eight shot minor is catering to a single firearm.

If that is the case... and it may appear that way... how do you get all those people that own 6 shooters out to USPSA? It hasn't happened. Why? I think it's because the 5" 625 moon clip guns kick ass over all the K&L frame 6 shooters currently. Allowing 8 round guns to compete in minor is appealing to me anyway. My 2 cents.

[Bosshoss]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

I think Craig hit the nail on the head here. Eight shot minor is catering to a single firearm.

If that is the case... and it may appear that way... how do you get all those people that own 6 shooters out to USPSA? It hasn't happened. Why? I think it's because the 5" 625 moon clip guns kick ass over all the K&L frame 6 shooters currently. Allowing 8 round guns to compete in minor is appealing to me anyway. My 2 cents.

If "625 moon clip guns kick ass over all the K&L frame 6 shooters". How are those K&L frame shooters going to feel about a 627 8 shot moon clipped gun?

That is just burying the largest potential place to recruit new revolver shooters even deeper.

I know that I won't be able to compete with a 8 shot gun with my 625 with a equal or slightly less shooter running the 8 shot gun.

I would guess that a K or L frame shooter that comes to a match and finds they have to not only compete against a moon clip 6 shot gun but a 8 shot one also, would leave and never return or hopefully at least return with a bottom feeder.

However this will not help revolver division grow if they(new shooters) are handicapped from the start.

I have told several spectators at the matchs, after they comment that they have a revolver at home, that they should bring it out and try it. They all said their's was a speedloader gun and I said that it will still be fun and with practice it won't slow you down as much as you think(over a moonclipped gun) and if you don't practice at home you will get lots of practice at a match .

I don't think I could EVER tell them that their 6 shot speedloader gun would be even close to a moonclipped 8 shot gun.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Bosshoss

[JFlowers]

I think this question really needs to be posed to the ICORE and IDPA shooters. "If you don't shoot USPSA Revolver, why not? What change would most tempt you to shoot USPSA Revolver?" I know what I would like to see, but that might not be the changes that would bring new shooters in.

[Racinready300ex]

I shot a couple of USPSA shoots in the last year with a 686 and speed loaders. I looked at it as practice for IDPA, I knew I wasn't going to be competitive with other revolvers when they get major scoring, and can reload faster.

4 months ago I bought a 625 so I can shoot more USPSA, and have a fighting chance. At least I'll know it's all me and not my equipment. Of course my state has a backlog of background checks so I just took possession of the gun last week. lol and Now USPSA changes the rules. I'll stick with the 625 for a while, and still shoot USPSA from time to time.

[PatJones]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

Many of these guns are chambered in .357 and can make major.

Edited June 28, 2013 by PatJones

[Bosshoss]

I think this question really needs to be posed to the ICORE and IDPA shooters. "If you don't shoot USPSA Revolver, why not? What change would most tempt you to shoot USPSA Revolver?" I know what I would like to see, but that might not be the changes that would bring new shooters in.

IDPA has the same problem as USPSA with revolver being the smallest division not sure how many would try USPSA but IDPA WAS(new rules are changing this if I read them right) revolver friendly in stage design and still it has very few revolver shooters.

ICORE is a small pool of shooters to draw from. The local ICORE club has had 2 shoots in the last 2 years and

1 of those had 20 shooters and I think I counted 4 or 5 IIRC 8 shot guns at that match. Not a big pool to draw from around here.

I know the west coast has a lot more ICORE shooters than the rest of the country but still a small pool to draw from when compared to all the 6 shot guns thet are out there.

[Nik Habicht]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

I think Craig hit the nail on the head here. Eight shot minor is catering to a single firearm.

If that is the case... and it may appear that way... how do you get all those people that own 6 shooters out to USPSA? It hasn't happened. Why? I think it's because the 5" 625 moon clip guns kick ass over all the K&L frame 6 shooters currently. Allowing 8 round guns to compete in minor is appealing to me anyway. My 2 cents.

Yep, I get that. I do worry about cost of entry to the division -- and lets face it, Revolver has more obstacles than most.....

Currently the gun is the 625. What's the price tag for a gun and a year's supply of moonclips? I assume that the rest of the rig isn't going to be significantly more expensive than a production or Limited rig?

The 627 is what -- a $1,000 gun? 625s with 5 inch tube are close to that, with 4 inch tubes somewhat cheaper?

Where's the "Glock equivalent" for Revolver? Could it be a K or L frame that's been cut for moon clips?

And I guess bottom line the question boils down to this: Is the six round limitation in an eight round world the biggest obstacle preventing entry? Or is it the cost of the equipment?

I have zero interest in shooting Revolver personally. I do have interest in growing match participation in all divisions. I hate to see single competitors at matches, the only guy shooting Revo or SS. If we're going to change things, I'd like to see us be successful in attracting additional competitors to Revolver Division -- if all it does is shuffle the participants around without a gain in numbers, then it was a pointless change....

[lugnut]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

I think Craig hit the nail on the head here. Eight shot minor is catering to a single firearm.

If that is the case... and it may appear that way... how do you get all those people that own 6 shooters out to USPSA? It hasn't happened. Why? I think it's because the 5" 625 moon clip guns kick ass over all the K&L frame 6 shooters currently. Allowing 8 round guns to compete in minor is appealing to me anyway. My 2 cents.

If "625 moon clip guns kick ass over all the K&L frame 6 shooters". How are those K&L frame shooters going to feel about a 627 8 shot moon clipped gun?

That is just burying the largest potential place to recruit new revolver shooters even deeper.

I know that I won't be able to compete with a 8 shot gun with my 625 with a equal or slightly less shooter running the 8 shot gun.

I would guess that a K or L frame shooter that comes to a match and finds they have to not only compete against a moon clip 6 shot gun but a 8 shot one also, would leave and never return or hopefully at least return with a bottom feeder.

However this will not help revolver division grow if they(new shooters) are handicapped from the start.

I have told several spectators at the matchs, after they comment that they have a revolver at home, that they should bring it out and try it. They all said their's was a speedloader gun and I said that it will still be fun and with practice it won't slow you down as much as you think(over a moonclipped gun) and if you don't practice at home you will get lots of practice at a match .

I don't think I could EVER tell them that their 6 shot speedloader gun would be even close to a moonclipped 8 shot gun.

Here's the thing... the K&L frame guys AREN'T coming out now to begin with. Besides I think most of the K&L frames are likely not moon clip guns anyway. There just isn't an easy answer to this. All I'm saying is that for me, I like the idea of 8 round moon clip guns, specifically my 627, being allowed. Are their better options? Leave it as is?

[lugnut]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

I think Craig hit the nail on the head here. Eight shot minor is catering to a single firearm.

If that is the case... and it may appear that way... how do you get all those people that own 6 shooters out to USPSA? It hasn't happened. Why? I think it's because the 5" 625 moon clip guns kick ass over all the K&L frame 6 shooters currently. Allowing 8 round guns to compete in minor is appealing to me anyway. My 2 cents.

Yep, I get that. I do worry about cost of entry to the division -- and lets face it, Revolver has more obstacles than most.....

Currently the gun is the 625. What's the price tag for a gun and a year's supply of moonclips? I assume that the rest of the rig isn't going to be significantly more expensive than a production or Limited rig?

The 627 is what -- a $1,000 gun? 625s with 5 inch tube are close to that, with 4 inch tubes somewhat cheaper?

Where's the "Glock equivalent" for Revolver? Could it be a K or L frame that's been cut for moon clips?

And I guess bottom line the question boils down to this: Is the six round limitation in an eight round world the biggest obstacle preventing entry? Or is it the cost of the equipment?

I have zero interest in shooting Revolver personally. I do have interest in growing match participation in all divisions. I hate to see single competitors at matches, the only guy shooting Revo or SS. If we're going to change things, I'd like to see us be successful in attracting additional competitors to Revolver Division -- if all it does is shuffle the participants around without a gain in numbers, then it was a pointless change....

As to your last paragraph. I almost agree. However it's a good thing to allow our current "customers" to have more options as well, agree? I don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does, and I'm sure I haven't figured out all the ramifications.. but I will say this. I personally have shot a fair amount of revolver in IDPA- SSR and ESR with my 686 and 625 respectively. I also own a 627 which has yet to see much use yet. I like my minor loads because it's easy on my elbows... I'd love to see more folks shooting wheel guns. But there aren't many around my area... and part of the fun for me is competing with a bunch of people IN my division. So I don't shoot it. I'm not going to train my ass off to compete with a GM and maybe a couple B shooters using 5" 625s with my 686 speed loader gun. That for sure just won't happen.

Edited June 28, 2013 by lugnut

[JFlowers]

Maybe the ability to split Revo into Moonclip and Speedloader Categories would be helpful, at least at Level II and III matches?