My gun feels different...

[spook]

As you might know, I dry fire a lot.

I noticed that on the range, whether it's dryfiring on the range or standing on line, handling the gun "feels" different. Different from what I feel when I'm doing dry fire excercises. It's like my gun is "sticky". I screw up my grip on the draw often in live fire. My reloads are less fast. E.g. I did a couple of sub 2 second draw-shot-reload-shot-drills in dry fire, and can also do .75 draws at 7 yd targets on demand. This is all dry fire. Now, on the range, I can't do this. There is a noticable difference between my gun handling speed on and off the range.

I cannot figure out if this is a mental or a physical thing. I must admit that over here ranges can be chilly and my hands tend to get cold. That might have something to do with it.

I like to get some pointers here, as I feel that once live fire and dry fire feels the same to me, I'll be able to uplift my skills dramatically. Anyone?

[Skywalker]

Spook,

is your dry-fire practice carried on with dummies in your cilynder, or not?

[9x23]

I don't have the answer, but I certainly agree with the question. Even my reaction to the start beep is different and the ranges here aren't chilly. I can run "GM" level in dry fire while calling my shots. At the matches I can't turn in consistant "A" level scores. For me I feel it's mental and hopefully I'll work through it with time and continued practice. Sorry I can't offer any help, but I hope you get a lot of good insight from this post. Thanks for asking the question.

9x

[spook]

Spook,

is your dry-fire practice carried on with dummies in your cilynder, or not?

Yes, I always use dummies.

[hopalong]

Spook

I too see a slight difference between dry fire and Live fire, example when shooting splits and transition drills the draw is usually comparable but the splits are always .02 slower between shots and transitions are about the same.

I do more live fire than dry fire as I can shoot in my own back yard and the range I shoot at is 18 miles away so I actually feel "strange" while dry fire practice.

I have thought about the difference of times as I noticed my "problem" about 6 months ago, the only thing I can atribute it to is you are sub consciously trying to control the recoil with the gun (including the trigger finger).

I am almost positive that is what I am doing as in dry fire I get .15 splits and in live .18 (with the bottom feeder I do not have this problem as I think the slide taking up the initial shock lets me have the freedom of trigger finger as I can get .12 splits regularly in both live and dry fire)

your draw times may be slower due to you expecting the "bang" instead of the "click".

my advice " if possible more live fire, if not dry fire in the garage or back yard to simulate range conditions"

Good Luck,

Hopalong

[Skywalker]

Spook,

I guess since you won EC 2004 that we should feel weird if we don't notice a different gun feeling between dry and live fire, not you noticing it ....

Forget my previous silly question...

[dajarrel]

Spook,

I'm just a new "B" class shooter but I don't think we should expect like performances btwn "dry fire" and "live fire." The dry fire practice we do is sometimes static as compared with the dynamic of live fire. For example. With the exception of a couple of classifiers, how often do we do standing reloads (except in revolver ). Not real often. We are always moving which then divides our concentration from not only reloading, but to maintaining our direction, looking for the next target, not breaking the 180 with a muzzle and in my case, not tripping over my own feet.

There is one more thing that I think makes a tremendous difference btwn "dry" and "live" fire. Recoil. Recoil management is, IMHO, the one thing that dry fire cannot teach. I marvel at myself sometimes in how fast I can (in my mind) get off the second shot when dry firing, but when I put live rounds in the gun and pull the trigger that fast without waiting for the sights to re-align my shots are usually vertically spaced from top to bottom of the target IF I can keep both of them on target.

Dry fire has a very real place in our sport. It can help us improve in any number of ways, but I don't think, that it can ever take the place of live fire, nor exactly capture all the nuances of live fire.

These are my experiences and I am always open to correction.

Perhaps Mr. Anderson can shed more light on the subject.

FWIW

dj

[spook]

@Sky: I think your "silly" question is a very valid one

@Hopalong & dajarrel: you give some very good and logic insights. I understand that recoil and actual shooting is different from dry fire, but what surprizes me is that everything I do that does not involve actual shooting, on the range, feels different. If I take my gun out of the bag, it feels different. If I warm up with some dry fire before shooting, it feels different.

Isn't it weird that I can do, on demand, 100 .7 draws at a 7 yd target at home, and miss my grip 5 times in a row on the range?

[shred]

I think it's mostly mental. I was talking with people at the range about this a while back and we all had the same effect-- things are slower and rougher in live-fire. Our theory was that it's to do with the live rounds and consequences/responsibilities those entail:

Put a shot wrong in dry-fire and nobody gets hurt. AD at the range and the consequences are much larger. Our bodies slow down just a bit to compensate.

That doesn't really explain how Spook's dry-fire at the range is different though. Are there other people at the range?

[Flexmoney]

I'm sure it's mental. Sounds a lot like some added tension to me.

You seem comfortable in dry-fire, likely because you have so much experience there?

[spook]

Put a shot wrong in dry-fire and nobody gets hurt. AD at the range and the consequences are much larger. Our bodies slow down just a bit to compensate.

I think you're on to something here. That was one of the thing that crossed my mind. But as you say, it does not explain why things happen differently while they're not neccessarily safer. Are there others except for me and 9x23 that have this?

[spook]

I'm sure it's mental. Sounds a lot like some added tension to me.

You seem comfortable in dry-fire, likely because you have so much experience there?

Thanks Flex, I think you've nailed it. Your post made me realize that perhaps I'm creating a difference between live fire and dry fire. And yes, perhaps it's an experience thing. So, more live fire with the analyzing mentality I have during dry fire should change something. I'll try it.

Any other suggestions, maybe from people who have "been there"?

[EricW]

For me there are not two, but three modes:

1. Dry Fire - obviously fastest, and where I become overly enamored with my abilities. Very aware of the gun.

2. Live Fire - Things slow down and reality sets in as soon as I have to tape a target. Less aware of the gun. Having live ammo in the gun slows things down. It's just the way it is for now, and I'm OK with that. Safe and kind of fast is an acceptable place to be for me today.

3. Match Mode - Gun becomes totally invisible and inaudible except for sights. I'm not sure I've ever really "heard" my gun go off in a match except when I had an overcharge once.

Oh...one more:

3.5 Slow Fire. My gun feels different during slow fire than rapid fire. The sight does not return automatically like in rapid fire. It goes to the upper right and stays there until I manually return it to the notch.

I know it's wrong, but that's how it works for me currently.

[schmitz]

Spook,

be the Spook you were before the EC. Hell yeah!

Maybe your suffering from a PCS (post championship syndrom)

[cz75ipsc]

Kinda drifting here, since spook was talking about revo's, but anyway...

I swear I can tell the difference in the weight of the gun between live and dry fire due to the round in the chamber. I use a 200 gr bullet, so I guess it's easier cuz of that. I feel the balance of the gun change, not so much the weight.

Honestly.

[benos]

I cannot figure out if this is a mental or a physical thing.

Those "two" things are not different.

And yea, Flex nailed the crap out of it with the "experience" example

In what ways does your dry-fire/practice experience relate to shooting in a match,

and in what ways does it have no relationship whatsoever?

be

[Ron Ankeny]

I know this might sound stupid but here goes. I have been doing decreasing par time drills dry right on the line. I get down to around 1.1 for reliably seeing the dot in the middle of the A zone, dry firing, then hearing the buzzer go off. I'll do this over and over until I am nailing the 1.10 par time like clock work. I immediately load up and start live fire and the timer will record 1.17-1.20 over and over again. I'll unload and set the par time to 1.1 and beat it every time.

I attribute this to a couple of things. First, am I really dryfiring the gun before the very start of the buzzer ending the par time, or am I hearing the audible drop of the hammer at the same instance the buzzer tones and fooling myself into believing the hammer dropped first? I don't know. My second thought is I know the dot has to be in the center of the A zone when I live fire because there will be proof in the form of a bullet hole. In dry fire I might be accepting less visually because all I need to do is to believe I am in the A box before I drop the hammer. Again, I dunno.

Anyhow, since I strated doing a lot of decreasing par time dry firing at the range, followed by immediate live fire, then back to dry fire, I have noticed the gap is narrowing.

[midvalleyshooter]

You can keep your hands warm using a chemical hand warmer in each pocket. The brand I use is called "Hot Hands" and is available in sporting goods stores for a couple bucks. You just unwrap them, shake them up and they stay warm for a few hours. Just keep them in your pockets and slip your hands in there often enough to keep them warm and supple.

That should keep your hands warm, all the other folks info will help with the rest:)

DVC,

Keith

[midvalleyshooter]

Ok, I got more than the how to keep your hands warm advice:)

Perhaps your dry fire routine is too routine? Would it be possible to vary the rooms or area where you regulary dry fire? Try to dry fire at different times of the day, before meals, after meals, low light, bright light etc. Just vary the outside stimuli so that where ever you dry fire you are in your comfort zone.

K

[froglegs]

spook, sounds like you are at the next level . I think eric pretty much nailed it.

working on making these the same in feeling should keep you busy for a lifetime!

just a note about rons question about the buzzer and the hammer... which one first? use a tape recorder to capture both sounds as you practice then play it back you may be suprised at what you hear the tape will tell all

[mcoliver]

I know this might sound stupid but here goes. I have been doing decreasing par time drills dry right on the line. I get down to around 1.1 for reliably seeing the dot in the middle of the A zone, dry firing, then hearing the buzzer go off. I'll do this over and over until I am nailing the 1.10 par time like clock work. I immediately load up and start live fire and the timer will record 1.17-1.20 over and over again. I'll unload and set the par time to 1.1 and beat it every time.

I have a question here somewhere on which part the end buzz starts to sound. A millisecond before or when it hits the par time.

I asked because I was having the same problems as Ron beating the par time dry and in live fire. I managed to "cure" this by doing something really weird; draw at the end of the first beep (w/c is contrary to what I've read and heard about drawing at the first tone of the beep). When I started doing this, it hit me how long the beep actually is. After a couple of nights dry firing and some range time doing this, beating my current par no longer made any difference on wether it was dry or live fire when I got back to listening to the first tone. Oh, and I now hear the hammer click before I hear the end beep.

About spook's "discrepancy", dude, try wearing the same jockeys both times (assuming you wear one).

Seriously, when you finally have an answer do post it here.

[AikiDale]

I know this might sound stupid but here goes. I have been doing decreasing par time drills dry right on the line. I get down to around 1.1 for reliably seeing the dot in the middle of the A zone, dry firing, then hearing the buzzer go off. I'll do this over and over until I am nailing the 1.10 par time like clock work. I immediately load up and start live fire and the timer will record 1.17-1.20 over and over again. I'll unload and set the par time to 1.1 and beat it every time.

I attribute this to a couple of things. First, am I really dryfiring the gun before the very start of the buzzer ending the par time, or am I hearing the audible drop of the hammer at the same instance the buzzer tones and fooling myself into believing the hammer dropped first? I don't know. My second thought is I know the dot has to be in the center of the A zone when I live fire because there will be proof in the form of a bullet hole. In dry fire I might be accepting less visually because all I need to do is to believe I am in the A box before I drop the hammer. Again, I dunno.

Anyhow, since I strated doing a lot of decreasing par time dry firing at the range, followed by immediate live fire, then back to dry fire, I have noticed the gap is narrowing.

Could it be that 7 hundreths to a tenth of a second is the difference between your perception at the speed of light and the time it takes the timer to recognize and record at the speed of sound?

[chp5]

Spook,

I think there will always be a difference in your dry fire and live fire times. Steve Anderson made reference to that issue in his book.

However, I do believe that decreasing par times in dry fire will translate into decreasing par times in live fire - but those two times will not be the same.

[spook]

ErikW, I completely identify my experiences with the 4 "realms" of shooting you wrote down. Especially the slow fire/rapid fire part, but that's something for a different thread. Your remark...

Having live ammo in the gun slows things down.

...made sense to me, but then I realized that I even have this when I have no ammo on the range. It's also when I'm dryfiring facing the wall onthe range.

Brian, I kind of suspect this....

In what ways does your dry-fire/practice experience relate to shooting in a match,

and in what ways does it have no relationship whatsoever?

...is a rethorical question, but here goes anyways

Dry fire relates to live fire/shooting a match, in that I handle the gun with the same intention in both situations.

It has no relationship whatsoever in that I don't shoot. This might sound simple. What I mean is that there is no "first one has to be right"-run. I practice dry fire to analyze. I push myself to cross limits.

I guess the main difference is that in dry fireI have the feeling that what I do is important, while in live fire I have the feeling that what the gun does is important. This probably sounds weird

@ Ron & Froglegs: I see what you mean, but it is not so much the difference in times between live and dry that I worry about. It is the difference in feel. It's missing a grip or fumbling a reload. Stuff like that happens less in dryfire. I worry about the fact that dry fire and live fire are becoming different things/realms instead of two things that stimulate eachother.

@midvalleyshooter: I tried the handwarmers and they make a huge difference on a cold range. I noticed the grip of my gun becomes real warm after 15 min of dry fire, and realized this probably never happens on the range. So this means that in a match your gun will feel different period, unless you warm it up or something.

I like the idea of dryfiring in different areas of the house. I try that, thanks!

@McOliver: Are there people who have more than one pair of underpants? Who are these freaks?

@Aikidale: I am going to work with your comment. I'll try something on the range tonight to see if it works.

@chp5: No doubt, dry fire helps a lot. I had a new personal best Bill Drill last monday after dry firing Bill Drills in the weekend with my timer. But still I can't help but think there has to be a way to experience dry fire and live fire the same way, with the only difference in the gun going click vs. bang.

Guys, I am real happy with the things you have posted. I feel this whole thread might take me to a next step. These forums are Da Shizzle! Thanks!

Björn

[benos]

Spook,

Actually I did not intend that to be a rhetorical question. It's often beneficial to compare things than can be compared, but the results are often less than favorable when comparing things that should not be compared.

There are three distinct realms (in this case).

There is dry-fire practice and training, there is live-fire practice, and there is competition. And while they all relate to each other in certain realms, in other realms they have absolutely no relationship to each other whatsoever. Confusing whether or not there is a relationship between dry-fire, live-fire practice, and competition can become a problem, especially if it gets to the level of obsessing over two things that doesn't actually relate to each other.

Dry-firing builds basic gun handling and indexing skills; however, the way you feel and the corresponding way your body responds will be quite different when the gun is going bang.

When the gun is going bang in a familiar, probably repeated practice run, what you see and feel and are capable of attending to will be nothing like what you are capable of attending to in a match.

be