My gun feels different...

[Flexmoney]

spook,

I can't help but think that you are experiencing tension when you mention "missing a grip or fumbling a reload".

I'm pretty sure it's there. Where it comes from and how to deal with it will be your challenge.

I'd try just using the timer as a start signal...ignoring the actually time completely?

[chp5]

Spook,

Actually I did not intend that to be a rhetorical question. It's often beneficial to compare things than can be compared, but the results are often less than favorable when comparing things that should not be compared.

There are three distinct realms (in this case).

There is dry-fire practice and training, there is live-fire practice, and there is competition. And while they all relate to each other in certain realms, in other realms they have absolutely no relationship to each other whatsoever. Confusing whether or not there is a relationship between dry-fire, live-fire practice, and competition can become a problem, especially if it gets to the level of obsessing over two things that doesn't actually relate to each other.

Dry-firing builds basic gun handling and indexing skills; however, the way you feel and the corresponding way your body responds will be quite different when the gun is going bang.

When the gun is going bang in a familiar, probably repeated practice run, what you see and feel and are capable of attending to will be nothing like what you are capable of attending to in a match.

be

One of the biggest challenges for me (and I suspect many competitors) is to close the gap of what I'm capable of in live-fire practice and in matches.

The top shooters in this sport have, no doubt, closed or minimized that gap. The absolute best shooters in this sport (e.g., TGO and Eric G) have an uncanny ability to close that gap and to perform consistently at the most important times/matches.

On the surface, they don't seem to posses individual skills not possessed by other top GM's, but at the end of the day, they are able to apply those skills at a higher, more consistent level. Is that ability a product of physiology or psychology - who knows. BE points out that the two are not different (I think I understand that concept ).

I just want to develop that ability

[spook]

Well, I just came back from the range. I did some live fire mixed with dry fire on the range. I noticed a couple of things.

1) Knowing that the gun will go bang hogs mental bandwith (/occupies my mind). I anticipate the shot. Kind of like a mental flich, I guess.

I did draws to 8" paper plates at 14 yds. I noticed that I was very busy with "hitting" the plate, instead of just putting the sights on the plate and watching them lift. I think it has something to do with that slight difference between caring about what you do, or caring about what your gun does. It's probably a lack of trusting/knowing.

These mental fliches seem to put me in a less observing mode. It is more difficult to remain calm.

2) I need to be way less forgiving when I dry fire, or trust my skills more when I live fire. In dry fire I try to be as true as I can, but there's definately still a difference in how much time I spend on the sights and how much attention I give to proper triggering. Lack of trust in live fire? Or overconfident in dry fire? Beats me.

3) My hands get dry at indoor ranges. I need to buy handwarmers

Confusing whether or not there is a relationship between dry-fire, live-fire practice, and competition can become a problem, especially if it gets to the level of obsessing over two things that doesn't actually relate to each other.

Well, at least I'm glad that my match performance is almost always better than my live fire practice performance

Flex, I'm with you on the tension thing. I know I'll have to deal with it all by myself. I just hope that I can figure this stuff out pretty soon.

@chp5: I think the two shooters you name have something in common. I remember reading somewhere in the very beginning of this board something Brian wrote about Rob. He said Rob was the dry fire king. He wouldn't follow a strict regime, but he would have his gun laying around the house and he would be picking it up and handling it now and then. Snapping it, doing some transitions and stuff.

I once asked Eric G. how much time he spent dry firing. I expected something like 1.5 hours a day. I was stunned when he told me he almost never dry fired. He would do it only if he had no time to train live fire and would do it only for 10 minutes tops.

I think they miss the gap between live fire and dry fire because they do so much live fire in comparison to the time they spend dry firing.

Could too much dry fire be bad?

[bountyhunter]

I noticed that on the range, whether it's dryfiring on the range or standing on line, handling the gun "feels" different.

I cannot figure out if this is a mental or a physical thing.

I have noticed the same thing. I am pretty sure it's because the gun gets nervous before matches. If it doesn't improve, I may have to get him a therapist.

[twix]

I tried combining dry fire with live fire, per RA, today.

In general the dry fire times were a little faster than live fire, and the time difference increased as distance was increased.

An interesting note at 25 yards: After a few erratic shots I remembered to wait for the dot to re-appear, or follow through as it is more commonly known. Accuracy went way up and times dropped considerably.

It's a simple Spock brain meld, "Dry fire meets live fire at the range."

Thanks Ron.

EricW: I embody the 1-3.5 post.

And to answer Spook: Yes there is a huge difference in feel for me between dry fire-range practice- local matches- bigger matches. For me it's probably mostly lack of experience, but it's almost a continium of an out -of-body experience as the challenge increases.

I really liked Ron Ankeny's "bridging" of dry fire with live fire at the range. It probably added an hour to my live fire time but well worth it.

3QT would really appreciate the "bridging"concept I think.

TomB

[midvalleyshooter]

Obviously I am fairly new around here. But I'd like to relate my dry fire experience. I have dry fired about 17 months with the cowboy guns 5 to 6 mornings a week. Perhaps 10 to 20 minutes or a cup of coffee. Sometimes I would work on specific skills. Other times I tried to simulate at least one matches worth, sometimes much more. A cowboy match often has 6 stages, a stage usally has 5 from each sixgun, 9 or 10 from the lever gun and 4 to 8 from the scatter gun. Around 23 to 28 rounds per stage X six for 138 to 168 total simulated rounds of dry fire per morning. Always seeing just what I need to see. Center of targets, break the shot when the front sight is on target, loading/ejection port of 1897 scatter gun, keep both hands busy, transistion to next gun while holstering or placing previous gun down. Anyhow what I found is I could dryfire a simple stand and shoot 10,10 and 4 stage in like 18 seconds but live firing would be more like 19 to 22, live fire changed the dynamics of everything. At a match it was more like 22 to 25 seconds because I did not want to MISS:)

Currently I either need a break or am tired of cowboy. I am working with my G34 and plan some IDPA/GSSF/USPSA production next year on the local level. I shot all these before and was B class, expert in IDPA and near the top at GSSF. In the old days I seldom practiced or dry fired.

The big difference between dry firing the cowboy guns and the autoloader is the actions. With the six guns, lever guns and pump action shot gun I have almost total simulation (using dummy rounds). With the auto loader much is left to the imagination.

Spook if you are shooting a revolver you can do similiar things using dummy rounds. Using dummy rounds, start loaded with 6 and all speed loaders loaded and simulate matches. Perhaps rehearsing for the match would change the "feel" of the gun.

But then as already stated you did alright at the EC:) Spook, thanks for allowing us to comment on/try to help and then responding.

I really like this forum. I have found when you post you always "get" as much as you "give".

Keith

[benos]

I really like this forum. I have found when you post you always "get" as much as you "give".

Ain't that the truth. And in all realms of life - you receive what you give.

Spook,

Knowing that the gun will go bang hogs mental bandwith (/occupies my mind). I anticipate the shot. Kind of like a mental flich, I guess.

I did draws to 8" paper plates at 14 yds. I noticed that I was very busy with "hitting" the plate, instead of just putting the sights on the plate and watching them lift. I think it has something to do with that slight difference between caring about what you do, or caring about what your gun does.

That's a good thing to realize. Try this - Set up a stage and include one "imaginary target" - either a piece of steel or a paper target requiring two hits. Just imagine it's in some certain spot, and be sure to shoot a good hit (or two) on it as you shoot the stage. Then after each run notice the difference in your mindset as you shot the real targets versus the imaginary one.

be

[Sam]

Spook, your gun should feel different on the range than it does in dry-fire. I would just accept this and be pleased at your ability to recognize it. It certainly isn't a problem unless you believe that it is. FWIW, my gun feels a lot more controllable in dry fire mode.

[Ron Ankeny]

What do you expect Sam? You only shoot real bullets three or four times a year.

[spook]

Anyhow what I found is I could dryfire a simple stand and shoot 10,10 and 4 stage in like 18 seconds but live firing would be more like 19 to 22, live fire changed the dynamics of everything. At a match it was more like 22 to 25 seconds because I did not want to MISS:)

Keith, this was another thing that made this whole process easier to comprehend. Thanks! It looks so simple, but it made me realize that in dryfire, I observe, and in live fire I "want". I want to be fast. I want to be accurate. And the big one, I want to see improvement when I'm on the range and results when I'm shooting a match.

And I think I've made the mistake of just taking the mechanics from dry fire to the range, but not the mental aspects that I developed in dry fire simultaneously with the mechanics.

Spook, thanks for allowing us to comment on/try to help and then responding.

No man, thanks to you guys for helping me out here! I really appreciate it!

(From Wayne's World: Terry: Wayne! Wayne! Garth told me about the show, man. I love you man. Wayne Campbell: Yea, and I love you too, Terry. Terry: No no no, I mean it man. I LOVE you! Wayne Campbell: No, I-I mean it. I love you. Terry: No you don't, man. I love you!)

Brian, thanks for giving me a drill to work with! I found it difficult to come up with a specific drill for this problem. I'm going to the range tomorrow, so I'll see how it works out.

@Sam: Accept it? Hell no! Though I think my lack of acceptance in this case will slow my progress down, but that is something for another thread

[spook]

I just got back from the range and a drill where I shot a target, an imaginary target and another target. I accept more visually on the imaginary target. That, or I see what I need to see faster. I think this is because I only have to allign the sights and don't have to check the relationship between the sights and the target. I confirm the location of the target, move the gun there and there's no more confirming to do before I finish the shot. Maybe I should dry fire with targets that are further away than the mini targets at 3 yds so I have to shift my focus more.

Well, that drill taught me something new, but it didn't answer the question that started this thread. Or maybe it did. It showed me that when you dry fire, you should not let dry fire become a different game than live fire.

Reloads from the real targets to the imaginary one are fast though I pulled a 1.45 and a 1.47 today. My first ones under 1.5 s

[Flexmoney]

Maybe I should dry fire with targets that are further away than the mini targets at 3 yds so I have to shift my focus more.

When Steve Anderson moved to his new house, he had more room (the whole basement) to use for dry-fire.

Before, he had used smaller targets to simulate distance. He found, that when he went to the new place, that placing the (full) targets at actually distance slowed down his tmes in dry-fire.