Nationals format

[Flexmoney]

Putting on my Forum Administrator hat for a moment...

I don't care for the speculations that there was some underhanded politics involved in the decision making. And, I won't tolerate that on this forum. It is against our policy here. If you want to make those kind of accusations...take it somewhere else.

Now...back on topic.

I think we were blessed by mild weather, lack of storms, good RO'ing, great shooter participation in resetting, lack of arbitrations...etc. All of those things came together just right, and allowed the match move along amazingly well.

I am sure we could have shot it in less days...but that is hindsight. I wouldn't have counted on it if I were the one doing the scheduling before the match.

The sight-in range and the prize-table...bothersome. Shooters weren't at fault there.

[Sestock]

The present format works.

This issue was discussed at the Annual Meeting on Wednesday night in Quincy.

Simply it is impossible to shoot this match in 3 days.

For a match of 550 - 600 shooters you need to run it either in the present format or have half of the shooters shoot Sunday to Tuesday and the other half shoot Wednesday through Friday. Under that format the people who shot the first half of the week would have to travel back out to be in the shoot off or attend the prize table.

Who will decide who shoots the first flight and who shoots the second?

And the big varible would be the weather, what would happen if one of the days was washed out due to lightning or range destruction?

The other thing is that the nationals will probably happen much earlier next year due to the world shoot, June or July in Barry cand be brutal.

This nationals will probably be the first to not have a sizable loss(or actually break even) in the past couple years.

[RIIID]

One idea that was talked about was having Prod.,L-10 and Revo shoot Mon., Tues. and Wed. AM. Awards and prize table Wed. night. Shoot offs Thur. at lunch time. Open and Limited start Wed. afternoon and finish on Friday. Shoot offs Sat. AM followed by awards and prize table. Everything held at the range. No double entries, pick your Division and shoot.

Rich

[tewlman]

One idea that was talked about was having Prod.,L-10 and Revo shoot Mon., Tues. and Wed. AM. Awards and prize table Wed. night. Shoot offs Thur. at lunch time. Open and Limited start Wed. afternoon and finish on Friday. Shoot offs Sat. AM followed by awards and prize table. Everything held at the range. No double entries, pick your Division and shoot.

Rich

that sounds like a doable format,except for the no double entries part. i would have prefered the option to shoot one of the factory divisions as well as open.

i had forgotten about the sight in range fiasco until you brought it up flexmoney, had someone beenoverseeing the range or put up some kinda sign to direct shooters to the sightin range that would have been a nonissue.

[mactiger]

However, the goat rope Saturday "4pm announced, 4:25pm actual" five (5!) hours after the shootoff trophy hand-out fiasco was a stellar example of evil in action. From the general discussion, two scenarios presented themselves with equal validity. Either there was a sweetheart deal promised to the nice Barry Civic Protection Agency ("oh, sure, 600 people will stay one extra day just because we can't read a clock and efficiently put together a schedule"), or it was a concerted effort to get shooters fed up with the inability of the Folks In Charge to read a clock and efficiently put together a schedule and thus leave early, thereby saving prizes for another match or the RO table.

Could be just flat incompetence instead of outright evil, but hey, I'm an optimist and never ascribe to incompetence what can be ascribed to evil

Alex

Alex, I've met you at two matches now, and I'm quite surprised that you are not the jackass in person that you try to be on this forum. Nothing you say is close to being the truth; planning for a match like this is done months in advance, and time is built into the schedule to allow for problems such as weather (we didn't have any real problems this year, but in years past, we've needed Saturday to get the match done), and to allow people who have to be in both places at once to travel and make themselves presentable. The timing problems at the Senior resource center were due to their personnel, not ours. Additionally, some of the people that needed to be there for awards were not there at 4 pm. I wasn't there for awards setup, but USPSA people did it, NOT SRC people as USPSA had contracted for. We are going to work that out. I don't know what their problem was--people on vacation or something.

Spreading rumors and bullshit innuendo does nothing to better the sport, or improve the quality of the match: it only detracts from the hard work that many people put into it, and frankly I'm tired hearing it from you, especially since you had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I hear they are looking for volunteers for next year--you can sign up by calling USPSA headquarters or contacting Michael Voigt. Good luck.

Troy McManus

[Wakal]

And I'm sick of hearing folks like you with no sense of humor at all. Get used to reading my posts exactly the same way I talk, with tongue firmly in cheek, and relax a little. You and I get along just fine in person; don't take offence so fast at my writing. Insert the word "JOKE" after the more egregious phrasing, and perhaps you will laugh now and then.

That said...the prize table fiasco was a goat rope. There was no excuse for the utter lack of logical planning that was represented by the horrible, and I say again, HORRIBLE, excuse for a prize distribution this year. I hit two Nationals last year, and was impressed with the way things ran...both awards and prize table...at both of them.

What happened?

As far as your attempt at an excuse for the near-half-hour delay at the unnecessarily-late-scheduled trophy presentation, I cry shenanigans. Simply unprofessional and inexcusable to keep a room full of people waiting due to ego.

Feel free to attack me some more, although I notice that Patrick used a more...expletive-laden...term to describe the fiasco you are attempting (and failing) to defend and you do not attack him. Why?

I like to shoot, and refuse to work as a CRO or RO for any match that doesn't allow me to shoot the whole match, so I must then refuse your generous offer. However, as the Match Director for the Texas State 3-Gun, you are welcome to come work MY match anytime. You are an excellent RM, and would be helpful.

While I've worked as CRO and RO for the Texas State Limited, Texas State Open, Texas State 3-Gun, and Space City, I've also served on the Setup Crew of the Texas State Limited and Texas State 3-Gun. I've been privileged to work on the match staff of Area 4, although only to run the prize table (see previous "whole match" comment). Please feel free to attack how little I volunteer to USPSA some more, I find that amusing as well.

Back on topic:

In my opinion, the trophy session was inexcusably late and VERY poorly scheduled.

In my opinion, the goat-rope of a prize table was VERY poorly scheduled and run by an obviously unhappy (and increasingly hoarse) staff due to poor planning.

Comments?

Alex

[reneet]

I liked the format. Enough time to shoot without being too exhausted to go and enjoy some other social activities.

[shred]

Ok, so the awards/prizes/shootoff blew from the shooters point of view (the only one I have), although I've got to say it was pretty rapid getting all the class awards done (I also thought Eric G got slighted)

How do we improve it? The #1 thing I can think of is to get many many copies of the overalls posted, perferably in large print, with officials crossing off names as they go. That would cut down the crowding and yelling tremendously. Somebody or a proxy doesn't show within a few minutes of being called, skip 'em and move on.

The Steel Challenge does it this way-- there are copies of the results handed out, the prizes are numbered and listed on a handout. The prize numbers are written on a whiteboard at the end of the room and erased when taken. Shooters sit in the room and check off prizes that are gone until they get called to the prize room. They then get 60 seconds to pick (they've had a list the whole time, so most of them know right off). Ask by number, get a bag, off you go.

[mactiger]

Insert the word "JOKE" after the more egregious phrasing, and perhaps you will laugh now and then.

That said...the prize table fiasco was a goat rope. There was no excuse for the utter lack of logical planning that was represented by the horrible, and I say again, HORRIBLE, excuse for a prize distribution this year. I hit two Nationals last year, and was impressed with the way things ran...both awards and prize table...at both of them.

What happened?

As far as your attempt at an excuse for the near-half-hour delay at the unnecessarily-late-scheduled trophy presentation, I cry shenanigans. Simply unprofessional and inexcusable to keep a room full of people waiting due to ego.

Feel free to attack me some more, although I notice that Patrick used a more...expletive-laden...term to describe the fiasco you are attempting (and failing) to defend and you do not attack him. Why?

I like to shoot, and refuse to work as a CRO or RO for any match that doesn't allow me to shoot the whole match, so I must then refuse your generous offer. However, as the Match Director for the Texas State 3-Gun, you are welcome to come work MY match anytime. You are an excellent RM, and would be helpful.

While I've worked as CRO and RO for the Texas State Limited, Texas State Open, Texas State 3-Gun, and Space City, I've also served on the Setup Crew of the Texas State Limited and Texas State 3-Gun. I've been privileged to work on the match staff of Area 4, although only to run the prize table (see previous "whole match" comment). Please feel free to attack how little I volunteer to USPSA some more, I find that amusing as well.

Back on topic:

In my opinion, the trophy session was inexcusably late and VERY poorly scheduled.

In my opinion, the goat-rope of a prize table was VERY poorly scheduled and run by an obviously unhappy (and increasingly hoarse) staff due to poor planning.

Comments?

Alex

Yeah, you put "JOKE" in front of your comments from now on, because since maybe I understand that you like to stir the pot, many others probably don't. As for attacking you, it was only retaliation for your self-styled joking comments about several people (not me) who worked very hard to make that thing happen at all. Since you don't know the whole story, speculative BS only besmirches their efforts.

Also, there was no ego involved in the awards distribution. It happened when it happened for several reasons.

Prizes were not well handled, I'll state that right here. Again, not my assignment, although I did pitch in when I got there. That could, and should, have been better organized, and I don't know why people were allowed to crowd the halls as they were. But, it wasn't my gig, and I don't know what happened.

I don't think I'll work a match for you, Alex. I might shoot one you produce, though, so I can then get on a public forum and espouse my conspiracy theories about "sweetheart deals" and saving prizes for the RO table.

As for Pat Sweeney, he merely called it a goatf**k; and I don't object to that, or your goat roping terms. What I do object to is the rest of your bullshit post, whether you were joking or not. I've given you a reasonable explanation for the timing of the awards, as it was explained to me by people I know and trust. If you don't accept it, fine, I'd hate to cloud your opinion with facts.

Troy

[mactiger]

How do we improve it? The #1 thing I can think of is to get many many copies of the overalls posted, perferably in large print, with officials crossing off names as they go. That would cut down the crowding and yelling tremendously. Somebody or a proxy doesn't show within a few minutes of being called, skip 'em and move on.

The Steel Challenge does it this way-- there are copies of the results handed out, the prizes are numbered and listed on a handout. The prize numbers are written on a whiteboard at the end of the room and erased when taken. Shooters sit in the room and check off prizes that are gone until they get called to the prize room. They then get 60 seconds to pick (they've had a list the whole time, so most of them know right off). Ask by number, get a bag, off you go.

Excellent suggestions, Shred. Thank you.

The lists were supposed to be handed out, with people outside in the atrium getting the competitors organized by placement. I don't know what happened to that, but the result was chaos, and that's not good.

Troy

[kdj]

This is my first visit to a match this size, so I have no previous experience to compare it to.

All in all, I though everything went very well. I liked the half day format since I still seem to fade if I have to shoot too much in a day and it gave me more time to try and fix the problems I was having! I also liked the opportunity to watch the SuperSquad shoot to see how it should be done.

I disliked the fact that the scheduling meant that I couldn't watch any of either the Open SuperSquad or the Ladies Squad.

There probably was some "downtime" but since I used it to watch other people shoot, I consider that time well spent.

The one thing that I really didn't like was the fact that there was nowhere for normal mortals to function fire or sight in after Sunday and that was a big problem for those of us with equipment issues.

I echo the previous speakers wrt Saturday. I watched all of the shoot-offs, wandered around the few remaining vendors and still had time to burn before the evening schedule. If it wasn't my first time there, I would have considered it a big waste to spend twice as much on an extra night in the hotel than the value of the prize received .

Actually, we had a great time Saturday after the prize table so it was worth staying this time

If anyone were to ask my opinion, based on very little experience, I'd say that the essential changes to make the match better from my perspective would be:

A sight-in range available all week;

Stagger the squads so there's not always the same overlap;

Compress the Saturday so that those of us who need to can get out that evening.

Whether it's shot in 3 days or 5 days doesn't matter to me since a bad day at the range is better than a good day at work (to paraphrase an old fishing line).

I'd suggest trying to get the awards in Friday evening, with prize distribution following the shoot-offs on Saturday.

Seems reasonable to one who has no real information.

I have to say that I'll be back next year regardless of the format, be it 3 days 5 days or 1 stage a day for a month, 'cause I had a lot of fun both on and off the range and met some interesting people. I have some vague appreciation of the tremendous effort that a lot of people put in to making this fun available to me and, while I'm sure there are things that might be done differently, I'm VERY VERY GRATEFUL to every one who made it work as well as it did.

It's fun being a newbie

Kevin

[BDH]

I have to say that I'll be back next year regardless of the format, be it 3 days 5 days or 1 stage a day for a month, 'cause I had a lot of fun both on and off the range and met some interesting people. I have some vague appreciation of the tremendous effort that a lot of people put in to making this fun available to me and, while I'm sure there are things that might be done differently, I'm VERY VERY GRATEFUL to every one who made it work as well as it did.

Thanks for your post, and I will see you there!!

[Wakal]

I don't think I'll work a match for you, Alex. I might shoot one you produce, though, so I can then get on a public forum and espouse my conspiracy theories about "sweetheart deals" and saving prizes for the RO table.

Gear up, cowpoke: http://www.sanangelogunclub.org/action_pis...TS3GunEntry.pdf

My USPSA sactioned matches run on time and under budget, and my books (and decision making) are quite transparent. No "incentive" or "community involvement" (or whatever you called it via email when we talked about the "cash up front" thing Mike told me that he requires of a Nationals host location) required before deciding on a location, and I am quite capable of discussing the good and the bad of matches that I am involved with...without taking offense

Back on topic: one of the long-haul local shooters was complaining about how the trophy thing used to be an actual dress-up (well, coat and tie) sort of banquet on Friday night. Whatever happened to that idea?

Alex

[BritinUSA]

This is an interesting topic of discussion.

I liked the format very much, I have long advocated the formation of a single US Nationals and I liked the way the scheduling was done. Shooting for half a day did not wear anyone out (except the poor RO's who were universally outstanding).

I liked the fact that I could wander round the stages with my camera and take pictures and watch some of the top guns shoot the stages, you could not do that if we were shooting all day. I thought the vendor tent was a little lacking, I raised the issue at the USPSA General Meeting that I felt that we are hammering the vendors too much. There are a few businesses that provide the majority of sponsorship, not only for Nationals but for Area matches as well.

As to the prize table, I was not there so I cannot comment on how it was handled; I proposed at the General Meeting that we abolish prize tables at Nationals, there was a spirited response to this proposal with some voicing support and others speaking out against it.

I asked if this item could be added to a forthcoming USPSA survey and Mike indicated that they could do that. I happen to believe that prize tables do not add to our sport in fact I think they detract from it. I felt that this years Nationals was exceptionally well organised and from what I hear the prize table was a black mark on an otherwise well run match.

I say we abolish prize tables next year and see what the response is...

On the issue of a 'sighting-in' range:

This matter was bought up at the pre-match shooters meeting when the shooters were chastised for shooting centre-fire handguns on a .22 pistol range and damaging that range - and that the organisers had set up targets on the rifle range for this purpose. I had an opportunity to speak to this person after the meeting concluded and set the record straight about this:

The 'sighting-in' range was shown in the match booklet as being on the Silver-Star rifle range. I went to that rifle range first thing on Sunday morning, there were no targets set up nor was there any sign posted to indicate that this was the right place. After I had registered for the match I went back up to the rifle range and again there were no targets set up. There was a father/son shooting long range rifle and using a truck to drive the several hundred yards to their target to patch/tape it. There is no way that anyone could use that range for sighting in with a handgun when a truck is driving back/forwards to the rifle targets.

I asked him if this was the sighting in area for the match and they said 'No, I think it's across the other side of the road" - where the .22 rimfire pistol range was located. So I drove over there and there were no targets and no shooters and no sign indicating whether or not this was the right place.

I drove back to the registration hall and asked one of the organisers where the sighting-in range was and they told me it was the Silver-Star rifle range, I told them that there were rifle shooters on the range and no targets.

I walked around the course of fire and about 1-2 hours later drove back up to the rifle range and the same father/son were still shooting and driving up and down the rifle range. As I left I noticed that there were some pistol shooters on the .22 rimfire pistol range. I later determined that they were told this was the correct sighting berm by the same father/son (members of PASA Park) that had told me the same thing.

If the berm was damaged by the competitors then the fault lies with the organisers. They posted no sign on the rifle range and they posted no Range Officer at the rifle range to oversee the sighting-in. A properly posted sign would have left no doubt as to the location of the sighting-in range not only for competitors but for members of PASA park so that they would know that this berm was reserved for the match competitors. An RO would also have been able to prevent the targets from being taken down, I presume this was done by the two rifle shooters and naturally added to the confusion.

The National's competitors were blamed quite unfairly at the shooters meeting by someone who had clearly not bothered to gather the facts about what had happened. They banned all sighting in for the duration of the match and so some competitors were denied the ability to check their guns prior to the start of the match.

[Chuck Anderson]

My guess would be that declining attendance and increasing costs probably caused the downfall of the banquet. When the match is running in the red for as many years as it has, it's kind of hard to justify the banquet. If this format brings the Nationals back into the black, as I think it will, then maybe, we can start having some better food. Until then I imagine it's snacks and $2.25 Bud Light

[davidwiz]

Thank you PASA for putting on a great match.

Um, PASA didn't put on the match, USPSA did.

[TriggerT]

One idea that was talked about was having Prod.,L-10 and Revo shoot Mon., Tues. and Wed. AM. Awards and prize table Wed. night. Shoot offs Thur. at lunch time. Open and Limited start Wed. afternoon  and finish on Friday. Shoot offs Sat. AM followed by awards and prize table. Everything held at the range. No double entries, pick your Division and shoot.

Rich

that sounds like a doable format,except for the no double entries part. i would have prefered the option to shoot one of the factory divisions as well as open.

I like this idea, since it woould mean I would be able to go to, and compete at the nationals, without having to take a full week off from work.

Could you get away with double entries without having to change the stages? I would think not, since the people who had already shot the stages would have a clear advantage over those who hadn't. I still like the idea of picking one division, and that's it.

[Barrettone]

I personally felt that the match went well, and that some work needs to be done on prize distribution (I don't think prizes are necessary...a match fee reduction would be better...but to each his own). If we are to do a prize distribution, and keep it informal (jeans and t-shirts), then I think USPSA should simply invest in a couple more of the large tents and do it all at the range...awards, shoot-offs, prize table...the whole shebang. The caterers could easily work out of S&W Hall and set up a buffet with chaffing dishes in the tent. Seems kinda useless to keep shuffling back and forth from Quincy for an informal dress banquet. Now, if USPSA wants to return to having a gala awards banquet, in a hall (as I think it should), then IMHO they need to go back to a more formal ceremony where everybody is jacket and tie, and we have the CRO's giving out stage win plaques.

It was actually quite pleasant to see Dave Sevigny looking like a gentleman in a coat and tie and the ladies in dresses. It looked more "professional" to me. I don't know where this tradition ended, but I personally think it should be renewed. We all looked like a bunch of gun-toting shmucks. Why not spit-polish things a bit, and come off as being a bit more classy. This isn't a slam on anybody in particular, but if we are to convert people to gun ownership and the shooting sports, then we need to project a better image. I couldn't help but notice how out-of-place we all looked at the Holiday Inn. Just an observation...Agree or disagree if you like.

I also feel that going to nationals has lost its "privelidged" status. It seems anybody can go, and doesn't have to earn a slot. It used to be that you only went if you were invited. I know that money talks and BS walks, but did we have to make this animal so big that it lost its prestige and significance??? I mean, you can't officiate there unless you are invited, so why not the same for the competitors.

I think it just cheapens the event when ANYBODY can go. I passed on my unearned slot to work the match because I felt it was more of a priviledge, and that I could learn more (which I did). It sometimes seems that IPSC views USPSA as the bastard-child of our sport because we are kind of a rogue. Granted, we pride ourselves on the fact that ANYBODY can shoot our sport in the USA, not just the elite (as it should be). I appreciate that, but just think that nationals should be different. It should be a badge of honor to represent your region, not that you were simply the first guy in line with $250 bucks.

So, why did we get away from this ideology??? Bigger numbers of shooters does nothing to enhance the event IMHO. Invited slots is usually half the shooters...top 3 in division and class at all majors (300 slots). Why not invite the top five or six from all the majors (500-600 slots), and make people earn them. If you want to go that bad...earn it. These numbers above DO reflect duplicate slots earned. What is your opinion???

Jeff

[BDH]

[drift]

Is it saako or sacco?

Just want to make sure I have this right...

[/drift]

[Chriss Grube]

I go to shoot so personally I don't give two Sh*&'s about a banquet. I agree with the get a couple more tents and do it all right at the range. Last shot fired, scores posted an hour later, line up and do the prize table & awards. I've shot 2 nationals and haven't stayed for the awards or prize table yet. I have a 13 hour drive home and getting back to my family means more than standing around for a prize that I'll end up selling off anyway. You can eliminate the whole Quincy Experience. Lets face it the shooters meeting was a joke. Don't park here... don't be racing Golf carts.. oh and did I mention Don't park here? Not a word about the actual changes to any stages. I agree with Jeff on the earned slots. Maybe it is the competitive side of me but I just don't see going to a match that you have no chance of winning. Pony up 250 and you can shoot the match, great for local matches and Area matches but you should earn the slot to the big dance. I'd also like to see the squading done more in line with the Super Squad. Take all the Class winners that earned slots from the Area matches etc. and put them together. You can then gauge the match better. Put all the M's with the M's A's with the A's etc. The match staff and the RO's did a hell of a job but the schedule sucked.

[MikeFoley]

The stages, ROs, schedule, and match were great. The pomp and circumstance surrounding the back and forth and waiting on Saturday was almost unbearable. Can you imagine that poor wedding party, also paying customers of the Holiday Inn. Seems like we could have arranged for one of the meeting rooms to be a waiting area.

The hindsight is always 20/20, but someone should have taken charge and moved the crowd, though I have no idea where. I do understand that 400+ is much different than last years 200 or so at each ceremony, but we should have seen it coming. Seems like we could have arranged for one of the meeting rooms to be a waiting area.

I picked up a prize for a friend in the revolver/ production room and it was almost empty. That could have easily held 200 competitors.

Handing out numbers and calling them in ranges, or scheduling times by order of finish seems logical. I suggest all revolver, production, and L10 shooters at first, then 20 competitors in each of the open and limited room every 10 minutes (or faster if it is empty). You could have moved 360 competitors in the first hour with no large unruly crowd in the lobby.

BTW, I would like to see all of you go to the polls in November and protect your rights like you waited on the prize table. Encourage everyone you know. Our small win last week has set the stage for us to not take any s--t from the antigunners.

On limiting the number of competitors, NO WAY! Our sport is growing and getting more acceptance everywhere. The competitors went through a lot to be there, travel, money, being gone from family and work.

The sponsors deserve a large turnout too, although I noticed three of our largest were not in attendance. If you make it like the PGA, that is what it will continue to be-F the average shooter. There are too many other sports that do that. Our sponsors are niche businesses that exist, thrive, and count on our members. Our members count on the sponsors a great deal too. Please buy your stuff from the guys who were there. I also like the prize table for what it is worth.

These are suggestions for next year, not complaints about what is over and done with. Thanks to all who worked it and made it possible, kegs included.

The soapbox just fell in. My .99 cents worth I guess.

[kdj]

the trophy thing used to be an actual dress-up (well, coat and tie) sort of banquet on Friday night. Whatever happened to that idea?

Some one came to their senses

I had enought trouble packing enough T-shirts and even if I owned a tie, there wouldn't have been room for it.

I don't mind what people wear (including Tactical Kilts, although not many would be up for those!) but I would be very unhappy if there was a dress code (or even a kilt code)

Kevin

[kdj]

I just don't see going to a match that you have no chance of winning. ... Take all the Class winners that earned slots from the Area matches etc. and put them together.

I have two problems with this:

1. I wouldn't be able to go because I don't have a chance of winning

2. It would encourage sandbagging to stay in a lower class even more.

I'm not big on classes, and it already seems wrong to me when a shooter gets a better prize than some one with a much better score just because they happen to be in D class rather than M. It would seem even more wrong if the D class shooter got to go to the match because he {wasn't good enough, didn't practice enough, avoided classifiers to not} to be in a higher class, whereas the better shooter didn't get to go.

Seems counter productive, no?

Kevin

[reneet]

the trophy thing used to be an actual dress-up (well, coat and tie) sort of banquet on Friday night.  Whatever happened to that idea?

Some one came to their senses

I had enought trouble packing enough T-shirts and even if I owned a tie, there wouldn't have been room for it.

I don't mind what people wear (including Tactical Kilts, although not many would be up for those!) but I would be very unhappy if there was a dress code (or even a kilt code)

Kevin

Several of the ladies decided we wanted to dress a bit more formally well in advance but I don't think it should be a requirement. Would have liked to see Troy in his Utilikilt again.

[shred]

I had to echo the previous comments on the sight-in range fiasco... Sunday we also tried to sight in. Went to the rifle range, were told by the same father-son pair "It's down over there" at the .22 range. No sign of any close targets on the rifle range.

Lots of ".22 only!" signs at the .22 range, but also half a dozen shooters blasting away (and some were truly just blasting magazines full downrange with little aiming-- I sure hope they were trying to work out cycling bugs, otherwise they were just annoying)

So, Monday we discovered some messed up scope mount screws and tried again.. this time at the rifle range (we weren't at the shooter meeting, so didn't hear the 'there is no sight-in range').. There were a couple of shooters there that had walked down to a berm and were sighting in, so we joined them.

About that time, a couple shooters and their Dremels showed up, said Ray was shortly behind and we probably weren't supposed to be there (they had worked out some sort of dispensation with him). After a little 'we didn't know any better', Ray was nice enough to let us finish shooting, but I don't think he was too happy with it.