zhunter Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 IMHO, the more people you get to try it the better chance for long term success. Even if the ruleset ultimately doesn't allow these things in the future it would let people try in the interim. this ^^^^^ Why make limiting/exclusive rules while gauging interest? I've been watching this thread quietly since its beginning. In time, you may need to rename this the "Old Farts Division". When able, I shoot in Open mainly because the red dot sight. I tried shooting Production a few years ago with disastrous results. I'm at the age its either a red dot sight or no sights at all. Open continues to get more and more expensive. This new division is perfect for those that don't want to spend the big bucks (especially just starting out) and want to shoot. When it hits a club in our neighborhood, I'll give it a try. Bill I think there are a lot of guys like Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) (Full disclaimer, both my wife and I have CZ Shadows all ready to go in this division with dovetail mounted sights.) As many know I have been a big proponent of this new Division. While I understand the premise of the weight rule, I think it will skew the numbers low, many current Production shooters have guns that would not meet the weight limit already. I think allowing all production legal guns to play in CO will be a much better test of participation. It's really easy to slap a $45 Springer Precision dovetail mount on an existing gun and try out CO. Certainly I can't speak for others, but I would have to buy 3 new guns to play in CO with a 33 or 35 oz. weight limit. Yes 3, one for each of us and one backup gun for matches. Why don't we try to be inclusive in the trial period and see who might want to play, gauge division retention by who stays to play. If in fact the weight limit is/was put in to appease a couple/few gun manufacturers I think that is a dangerous road to travel. Let's not forget, CZ is sponsoring Production Nationals, do we want to alienate CZ? I also think it is a bit of a misguided premise that all carry guns are lightweight. As I stated previously I carry a full size 1911 which certainly would not meet a CO Division weight limit. When the BoD voted down the original proposal last December I pretty much gave up hope and via a very understanding optician had glasses made specifically for shooting. I absolutely prefer to shoot without prescription glasses and use a dot, but I also really like my Shadow. If there is a weight limit I'll have a tough decision to make. Edited July 23, 2015 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 CZ does make some lighter weight guns that would be eligible for Carry Optics, such as the full size P-09 and a few of the compact variants of the CZ-75. The metal-framed guns are starting to dominate Production Division and the BOD may be trying to address that imbalance, though a good showing of polymer guns in the top ten at the Prod Nationals could change peoples perception of what is competitive with regard to gun weight in that division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) I think it was July 27th, 2014 that I published my proposal for this division, so its been almost a year waiting for this to happen, over the next few months it will be interesting to see how this develops. I suspect that Glock and S&W will get behind this in a big way and other manufacturers will jump in too. Glock ships something like 400 000-500 000 guns to the US / year. I'm sure they're jumping up and down in excitement about selling another 10 guns to the guys shooting Carry optics. Edited July 23, 2015 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Increase to 15 round capacity before going live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) So full metal framed guns are bad? We should make the plastic guns the only ones you can use because people are made about not being able to find a stock II? Maybe we should have manufacturer divisions. That way if you shoot a Glock you only compete against Glock, S&W against S&W, CZ vs. CZ, and so on and so forth. I feel like this is youth soccer where everyone gets participation awards. If we need so many rules so someone gets their award how about an option when you sign up you pay an extra $5 and get your participation award. Edited July 23, 2015 by clawson2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Photographs and videos of competitors shooting these guns in competition will spread via social media and help to drive interest in these guns. I think USPSA offers very little in return for sponsors investment in the sport, one of the few things we can do for them is give them exposure. It's hard to quantify the effect that social media has on product sales but I'm willing to bet that it makes a difference which is why these companies invest so heavily in his form of promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Seems like one of the big arguments I hear for this misguided effort is, "It will be cheaper than open". So, maybe this is why the CZ's are being left out? I have seen production guns that cost nearly as much as some open guns and they are not cheap plastic striker guns. I also don't see this as correcting an imbalance in production. Won't this be a totally different division? Whatever dominates production will mean nothing to po shooters. And I still get a kick out of just how much of a following some guys think uspsa has and this new division will get so much exposure that it will explode within uspsa. USPSA shooters make up what? 1/1000th of the gun shooting culture or less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Glock ships something like 400 000-500 000 guns to the US / year. I'm sure they're jumping up and down in excitement about selling another 10 guns to the guys shooting Carry optics. Using competition to market to competitors only is a failing strategy. I could elaborate, but I get paid for marketing work these days. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Glock ships something like 400 000-500 000 guns to the US / year. I'm sure they're jumping up and down in excitement about selling another 10 guns to the guys shooting Carry optics. Using competition to market to competitors only is a failing strategy. I could elaborate, but I get paid for marketing work these days. ;-) Bingo. The competition "tag" is more valuable to them than actual competition sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Sarge, what kind of production optics gun are you getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 So i guess this new provisional division should really be called "polymer carry optics", right? So much for playing in this new division as I'm not going to buy another gun & hope everything works out .. I was pretty excited about the prospect of shooting my CZ Shadow in this new division .... Hey Moto: Why do you have an age limit before you can shoot open? You want to wait until you're old & decrepit and then start shooting the fastest pace division there is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Seems like one of the big arguments I hear for this misguided effort is, "It will be cheaper than open". So, maybe this is why the CZ's are being left out? I have seen production guns that cost nearly as much as some open guns and they are not cheap plastic striker guns. I also don't see this as correcting an imbalance in production. Won't this be a totally different division? Whatever dominates production will mean nothing to po shooters. And I still get a kick out of just how much of a following some guys think uspsa has and this new division will get so much exposure that it will explode within uspsa. USPSA shooters make up what? 1/1000th of the gun shooting culture or less? not sure that the arguments a bunch of random people on an Internet forum use as justification for this new provisional divison mean anything. What matters is what arguments were used that convinced the voting leadership of USPSA to go ahead with this because this same group will also be making the final decision as to whether it stays or not .... They obviously heard something which convinced them to vote "yes" ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It looks to me that a temporary provisional division is going to be like a temporary government program. Do they ever get rid of lame Duck divisions or just leave them there for people to hide in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I just weighed my Carry Optics gun: XD(M) 5.25 9mm Powder River Extreme Trigger Springer Precision DelatPoint mounting plate Leuopold DeltaPoint scope Factory Magazine Springer Precision .25 base pads Total weight was 29.4 oz. USPSA's Production Gun list shows the base gun at 29 oz. I suspect it may be a little lighter than this out of the box. I'll need to confirm that the magazine length with the .25 base pads is within the new guidelines on magazine length, they are currently legal for Production division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I hear they give away cookies at IDPA matches, maybe if you ask nice you can get cookies with your participation award in USPSA now, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'm curious to see the actual ruleset. But - I think not allowing more flexibility at least initially may not be the best plan. Particularly with respect to weight and no frame mounts. Frame mounts would allow a lot of folks to sample the division without permanently altering their firearm. Same with weight. If I have a CZ that I shoot, and could hang a rail mounted optic to try the division, I might. If I have to mill a Glock slide, I probably won't try. If it takes off I'd be interested, but I'm not dropping the $$ for a slide and milling. I would consider rail mounted something however. IMHO, the more people you get to try it the better chance for long term success. Even if the ruleset ultimately doesn't allow these things in the future it would let people try in the interim. Even the cheapest frame mounts out there are more expensive than most dovetail mounts that more than likely already exist for your particular gun. And using a currently production legal holster with a dovetail mount wouldn't make you have to buy a new holster, whereas a frame mount would require you to buy a new, full custom holster instead of just using the one you already have. Interesting, thanks for the info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Rumor is the SIG320 is going to come out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 From the USPSA Downrange email - Carry Optics provisional division announced USPSA For decades, USPSA has shaped the pistol industry through its shooters who constantly made their firearms more accurate, comfortable and reliable. From handmade beavertails, thumb safeties and mag wells to electronic sights and porting, our competitors have been instrumental in pushing firearms manufacturing forward.Recently, the tides have started to turn, and it is USPSA who must keep up with the industry. We have recognized the progression of lightweight carry pistols that are being outfitted with slide mounted electronic optics. In an attempt to answer this growing trend, USPSA has approved the provisional division of Carry Optics. For the remainder of 2015, Carry Optics will be recognized at sanctioned Level 1 USPSA events. At the next in-person USPSA BOD meeting, Jan 23-24, 2016, the Board will evaluate member participation, industry response and growth trends to decide if Carry Optics can remain a viable division within USPSA. The division rules will stay very restrictive to avoid the potential "arms race" and will keep the requirements strictly in line with industry offerings. A complete appendix of Carry Optics division specifications will be available at www.uspsa.org in the coming days.We are excited to see how this new division will be received by our members and the industry. Phil Strader — PresidentUS Practical Shooting Association Sounds like the reasoning for polymer only is to line up with "industry offerings". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 So i guess this new provisional division should really be called "polymer carry optics", right? So much for playing in this new division as I'm not going to buy another gun & hope everything works out .. I was pretty excited about the prospect of shooting my CZ Shadow in this new division .... So was I.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zy112 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Another division nobody cares about, great. With the time frame given, it kind of feels like they are just doing this to say "we gave it a go, now go away." By the time it's live, and the few people that may actually want to shoot it get guns modded up, there's not going to be a lot of season left. Hoping that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 BritinUSA and others lobbied long and hard for this division. Now that it's been approved by the BOD, I can't see why anyone would rain on his parade? If it helps, great, if it doesn't, it will go away all by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 BritinUSA and others lobbied long and hard for this division. Now that it's been approved by the BOD, I can't see why anyone would rain on his parade? If it helps, great, if it doesn't, it will go away all by itself. Thank you. I think this is a worthwhile endeavor, "if you build it, he will come'… and if he doesn't then so be it, at least we won't be left with a diamond shaped hole in a corn field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Absolutely hilarious to follow this! You guys winged and moaned like a bunch of liberal victims... You finally succeed as the uber vocal minority to get your way, now you are crying that it's not good enough! Awesome!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) So i guess this new provisional division should really be called "polymer carry optics", right? So much for playing in this new division as I'm not going to buy another gun & hope everything works out .. I was pretty excited about the prospect of shooting my CZ Shadow in this new division ....So was I.... So were my wife and I Edited July 24, 2015 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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