Production optics

[B_Seehawer]

Rob. Are you suggesting that uspsa beat idpa to the punch on this division?

Do you think it will increase the participation and membership?

[BritinUSA]

I don't think that ProductionOptics is a threat to the existing Production Division, quite the opposite in fact I think the will complement each other. For introducing new members to the sport we will have two relatively 'low cost' divisions both built around the same type of gun. New members can start with either iron-sights or optics depending on what they have and I suspect that in the future more companies will offer options like the M&P Core that allow an easy swap between the two sighting systems.

You could shoot ProductionOptics one week and pull the scope off and shoot Production the next.

To be honest, if ProductionOptics is a threat to any division, it has the potential of reducing participation in Open whose guns can cost considerably more.

I think ProductionOptics should be a provisional division for a couple of years, I don't agree with it being a category (sorry Rob) as I think that would show a lack of commitment from USPSA (an easy day out if you will). I think USPSA needs to put this out there and back it up and let the manufacturers (guns and scopes) know about this new division and see how the industry reacts too.

The clock is ticking here, I am sure that IDPA will at some point introduce an Optics division (S&W is a huge sponsor of IDPA). We need to get out there first and make this happen, it will be good for the sport, it will keep USPSA relevant and most importantly it will give TGO another opportunity to win a Championship

And on another topic; I just finished shooting the Hornady Area 3 Championships... why I keep trying to shoot that match in one day is beyond me... I totally lost my focus after a reshoot on the all-steel stage and everything after that was just nasty. I shot in Open Minor using my ProductionOptics setup, all Production legal except for the red-dot and spent most of the day cleaning magazines. Apart from a couple of hiccups, my XDM 5.25 operated well but the operator sadly, not so much...

Live Coverage tomorrow morning of some of the top women in the sport and some of the AMU team in the afternoon.

Edited August 2, 2014 by BritinUSA

[kmca]

I don't really agree. I"m sure ProductionOptics will draw some away from Production. But, it will probably draw more new shooters and help retain the older shooters. Would the difference between a new ProductionOtpic Provisional Division and a subcategory of Production be, the subcategory could be "real" immediately and a Provisional Division becomes "real" after a certain period of time?

[Andreas]

I'd give Production Optics a whirl. Good excuse to get another blaster without all the overhead of a new belt system, magazines, etc. Plus it will be real handy when my eyes start failing. I'm closing in on 42 without any kind of corrective lenses, and my luck has to run out at some point.

[Nimitz]

It's not needing corrective lenses that is the issue ... I've been wearing contacts for 30 yrs ... It's when you can't correct your vision to 20/20 WITH lenses that it might be time to add that red dot ...

[teros135]

Regarding vision, here's a thought for the (other) old-timers out there. Use a fiber optic front sight (small, like a Warren-Sevigney, not huge) and wear a pair of inexpensivo WalMart readers (+1.0 or +1.25 power), which will improve the visibility of the sights and still allow you to see the target. The small, bright optic is really easy to pick up, especially if it's red. If you need better distance vision to check a farther target, tilt your head and look over the glasses. If you wear eyeglasses, you're probably looking through the "distance" part (the top half) anyway, and adding the +1.0s would have the same effect. The amount of correction in the readers will depend on what your distance prescription is.

[OUshooter]

Did I really see that folks think PO will be a factory ammo div? Seriously, who shoots any division with factory ammo?

If you shoot 3 matches a month that's close to $130ish/month. Provided you shoot decent ammo, don't forget shipping. That's also zero practice. And since the pro PO crowd is all about being competitive I know there is at least 500rds a month budgeted for practice.

If you can afford $250/month in ammo, then don't cry to me about a $3500 open rig. The guns are the cheapest part of this game.

[trgt]

Did I really see that folks think PO will be a factory ammo div? Seriously, who shoots any division with factory ammo?

...

"Factory ammo" as you could potentially go to the store and buy ammo for it if you choose. We field over 30 production shooters a match out of 100 total for a typical match, and there is good mix of those who reload, those who buy reloaded ammo from say Freedom, and those who shoot store bought (Cabelas, Wally world, provided by their 'dept'). Compare that to Open Major with 9mm, and those second two are not options - can't get major PF 9mm in the store, very few will reload it for you because of liability concerns, so really only something you can do if you reload. It's the accessibility issue, imho.

Yes, as folks get better they do tend to want to reload for both financial and performance reasons, but that $1k+ upfront investment in reloading equipment and expertise isn't required to get started in production.

Edited August 8, 2014 by trgt

[kdj]

Some times time is far more important than money which makes a division where you can use store bought ammo and optics an interesting one, from some perspectives.

Edited August 8, 2014 by kdj

[Nimitz]

yeah, not mandatory. Just the fact that you can use factory ammo if you want. This is one of many reasons why we keep saying that PO and open are different ... if you shoot major PF you are reloading ...

[Racinready300ex]

Doesn't off the shelf 40 make major? Can't you use 40 in open? Will a couple rounds less in the mag really make that much more differance? I've seen limited shooters do pretty well in the overall against open shooters.

[Jaycwebb]

Doesn't off the shelf 40 make major? Can't you use 40 in open? Will a couple rounds less in the mag really make that much more differance? I've seen limited shooters do pretty well in the overall against open shooters.

I've seen very good Limited shooters do well against okay Open shooters. Assuming the skill level was equal, the Open gun should win every time.

[Racinready300ex]

Doesn't off the shelf 40 make major? Can't you use 40 in open? Will a couple rounds less in the mag really make that much more differance? I've seen limited shooters do pretty well in the overall against open shooters.

I've seen very good Limited shooters do well against okay Open shooters. Assuming the skill level was equal, the Open gun should win every time.

True, and there is more of a diff. between limited and open then just 9mm and 40.

But 3 rounds less in a mag in open isn't going to kill you. It may not be ideal, but if you don't want to reload there are options. It's not like you can't shoot open just because you don't reload, like is implied in this thread. I'm sure you can make GM in open with a 40 and a slide ride if you wanted to.

[Racinready300ex]

Yes, as folks get better they do tend to want to reload for both financial and performance reasons, but that $1k+ upfront investment in reloading equipment and expertise isn't required to get started in production.

I got started reloading with a $150 Lee Pro 1000. And still use it today. No need for $1+ investment.

[zhunter]

Yes, as folks get better they do tend to want to reload for both financial and performance reasons, but that $1k+ upfront investment in reloading equipment and expertise isn't required to get started in production.

I got started reloading with a $150 Lee Pro 1000. And still use it today. No need for $1+ investment.

There is always one, you sir are a true Unicorn

[cnote]

Yes, as folks get better they do tend to want to reload for both financial and performance reasons, but that $1k+ upfront investment in reloading equipment and expertise isn't required to get started in production.

I got started reloading with a $150 Lee Pro 1000. And still use it today. No need for $1+ investment.

There is always one, you sir are a true Unicorn

I shed my horn some time ago and went blue, but it did get me introduced and then hooked to reloading versus off the shelf where I got hooked on competitive shooting. If you can find the time, reloading allows more bang for the buck.

Started 9 minor and graduated to major on a 550, then had to get a 650 and so on , and so on like Vidal Sassoon

[OUshooter]

I started out with a $500 turret press setup and broke even in 3 months. Yes my club also routinely runs 30 or more shooters in prod a month, and the only ones that don't reload are the once a month guys that come out for fun not too be competitive.

In the end the members will have the final say, for better or worse the sport will have to live with it.

[v1911]

Let me start by saying I am not a USPSA member, but I really enjoy the POV videos that many of you post on youtube. I've spent 4-5 hours of my life reading this thread. I think what you guys are trying to accomplish is awesome. I can see both sides of this argument but am currently siding with the "build it and they will come".

I read a few posts mention IDPA. I am currently an IDPA member. Using optics (of any sort) is actually legal under the new NFC (not for competition) division IDPA implemented this year. It allowed you to run what you brung. But this is only permitted at tier 1 level.

I was initially excited to hear about this new division last year when it was hearsay. Unfortunately I've yet to see any optics at any of our club matches since its inception. The only benefit I've seen from it was allowing juniors to use .22s to experience the joys of an action pistol game. And that was also the intent of the division. Allow people to bring whatever it was they had at home that didn't fit into one of the 3 other divisions and safely enjoy the sport.

I'm unsure of the membership numbers in comparison, but I'm guessing USPSA is a much larger and more active organization. With that in mind I'm hoping that there will be more of you to get the word out and make this a success. But just a small dose of reality... If IDPA is any indicator, there really aren't that many people waiting to use a slide ride optic in competition. Again, I hope that I'm severely mistaken and that you guys can make this a reality!

Best of luck!

[motosapiens]

Yes, as folks get better they do tend to want to reload for both financial and performance reasons, but that $1k+ upfront investment in reloading equipment and expertise isn't required to get started in production.

I got started reloading with a $150 Lee Pro 1000. And still use it today. No need for $1+ investment.

There is always one, you sir are a true Unicorn

Lots of people I know started on a single-stage for a year or so. I held out for a progressive press until I had saved enough money by reloading to pay for it. (which doesn't take long if you're shooting enough to improve quickly).

You can get started in reloading for less than $200.

Edited August 11, 2014 by motosapiens

[Bosshoss]

FWIW we had a brand new shooter at this weekends match. He was shooting a FN(?) with a slide mounted optic. It was a 45 and he of course shot open. He only had 3 mags and since he was shooting open he loaded them to full capacity(15 rounds). These guns are out there and maybe more than we realize.

[trgt]

....

You can get started in reloading for less than $200.

It's a little bit funny, when I suggest folks could shoot PO for $800 (500 glock, 300 fastfire plus dovetail mount), people say don't be ridiculous; folks will want a $2k tuned production racer, before optic.

But when I give a reasonable long term buy for reloading (progressive 650 -> $1k), now folks find all sorts if ways to do that for cheap :-) why not also the gun?

So combine them both, you can get your PO gun with optic for $800, and reloading rig for $200 more when you are ready to learn how, awesome place to start! :-)

[motosapiens]

....

You can get started in reloading for less than $200.

It's a little bit funny, when I suggest folks could shoot PO for $800 (500 glock, 300 fastfire plus dovetail mount), people say don't be ridiculous; folks will want a $2k tuned production racer, before optic.

But when I give a reasonable long term buy for reloading (progressive 650 -> $1k), now folks find all sorts if ways to do that for cheap :-) why not also the gun?

So combine them both, you can get your PO gun with optic for $800, and reloading rig for $200 more when you are ready to learn how, awesome place to start! :-)

Both are true. You can start for cheap, but most serious folks will want to step it up after a while. The nature of this sport is that equipment in general is pretty cheap (compared to travel costs, time, ammo, practice, etc....).

I also know lots of folks that shot their first matches with pretty stock $500 guns. However I don't know very many of them that didn't step up to more expensive equipment after a few months or a year.

Edited August 11, 2014 by motosapiens

[bikerburgess]

While I am I'm favor of some sort of optics division (just not one tied to the production rill set as it is) I keep seeing people talk about the cost of open. I shoot the gun in my avatar (a glock 22 in 357 sig) in open and am competitive in B class with it. I believe I have just over 1K in it including the mags

[ZackJones]

While I am I'm favor of some sort of optics division (just not one tied to the production rill set as it is) I keep seeing people talk about the cost of open. I shoot the gun in my avatar (a glock 22 in 357 sig) in open and am competitive in B class with it. I believe I have just over 1K in it including the mags

I think when we are talking about the high cost of open we are referring to the master blasters from STI/AKAI/SVI that shoot .38 Super. At least that's what I think when I'm talking about an expensive open gun.

[bikerburgess]

While I am I'm favor of some sort of optics division (just not one tied to the production rill set as it is) I keep seeing people talk about the cost of open. I shoot the gun in my avatar (a glock 22 in 357 sig) in open and am competitive in B class with it. I believe I have just over 1K in it including the mags

I think when we are talking about the high cost of open we are referring to the master blasters from STI/AKAI/SVI that shoot .38 Super. At least that's what I think when I'm talking about an expensive open gun.

I understand that but It is being used as the basis for the argument that you can't be competitive in open on a budget, and that I believe is false