rvb Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) The problem here is that most stage descriptions specify something other than "in box A" or "in FFZ." The moment you write something like "toes on marks" or "standing in Box A" you have specified a start position different than what is stated in 8.2.2, and those requirements go out the window..... Want them to "stand in Box A" or "with toes touching marks", or "with back against a wall" and do something specific with their hands, such as "hanging naturally at sides?" Better write that in as well..... Otherwise the only requirement is that they be upright in Box A, have their toes touching marks or back against the wall.... Nick, your comments struck a cord, and maybe I can learn something... a common interpretation even. When I look at 8.2.2 I dont read it in a way where saying "toes on marks" causes the "default" of facign downrange and hands relaxed at sides (HRAS) to no longer apply. But I see how you could read it that way. It says "unless otherwise specified ... erect/downrange/HRAS." By saying "toes on marks," I'm not specifying otherwise.... I'm not saying to face uprage or put hands elsewhere. I always read it as HRAS is the default. Just saying "toes on marks" says WHERE to do the default. Have I really been doing it "wrong" in my stage briefs and as an RO and so long as the competitor has toes on marks they can stand however they want?? Is that the common interpretation? I want to know as both a stage designer, RO, and competitor. I'll get away with whatever I can as a competitor... Thanks, Ryan Edited October 16, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. When fractions of a second matter... it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Pro Am 3 gun, stage 1 said weak hand on table strong hand holding phone.....Lee King was the RO on that stage. I took the phone in hand, started facing the table, got the stand shooter ready question and just kinda rotated my body 180 to the direction I was going in. Lee said I was the first one to do it, but why not face the direction you gotta move in? As I've always understood it to be if a start position says heels on marks that's all I am required to do. In multi gun you may have a gun in hand and start position should have a start position for the gun as well. Since in USPSA pistol matches you don't start with gun in hand either what my hands are doing either needs to be specific in the wsb or its up to me as to how I want to hold them. Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 The problem here is that most stage descriptions specify something other than "in box A" or "in FFZ." The moment you write something like "toes on marks" or "standing in Box A" you have specified a start position different than what is stated in 8.2.2, and those requirements go out the window..... Want them to "stand in Box A" or "with toes touching marks", or "with back against a wall" and do something specific with their hands, such as "hanging naturally at sides?" Better write that in as well..... Otherwise the only requirement is that they be upright in Box A, have their toes touching marks or back against the wall.... Nick, your comments struck a cord, and maybe I can learn something... a common interpretation even. When I look at 8.2.2 I dont read it in a way where saying "toes on marks" causes the "default" of facign downrange and hands relaxed at sides (HRAS) to no longer apply. But I see how you could read it that way. It says "unless otherwise specified ... erect/downrange/HRAS." By saying "toes on marks," I'm not specifying otherwise.... I'm not saying to face uprage or put hands elsewhere. I always read it as HRAS is the default. Just saying "toes on marks" says WHERE to do the default. Have I really been doing it "wrong" in my stage briefs and as an RO and so long as the competitor has toes on marks they can stand however they want?? Is that the common interpretation? I want to know as both a stage designer, RO, and competitor. I'll get away with whatever I can as a competitor... Thanks, Ryan I agree with your interpretation: "When I look at 8.2.2 I dont read it in a way where saying "toes on marks" causes the "default" of facign downrange and hands relaxed at sides (HRAS) to no longer apply." From the rulebook: " The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the writtenstage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides." I understand that to be that the competitor should assume the start position and unless you have to hold something or have your hands on the Xs, etc. you must face downrange, with arms hang in naturally by the sides.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Since in USPSA pistol matches you don't start with gun in hand either what my hands are doing either needs to be specific in the wsb or its up to me as to how I want to hold them. 8.2.2 is specific........ -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Unless otherwise specified ......heels on marks is specific.....it means heels on marks ...... Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Unless otherwise specified ......heels on marks is specific.....it means heels on marks ...... Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2 Hence my question in post #51. I read it differently. I haven't told you not to stand erect, to face uprange, or do anything else w/ your hands. I haven't "specified otherwise." to me, "heels on marks" is no different than "in box A" or "starting in the shooting area" Maybe I'm not in the majority in my interpretation. But I'm not alone. Regardless which is right, some people are doing/officiating it wrong. Perhaps the "default" needs removed, and we go back to doing whatever the hell you want unless specified (which is what adding the default was trying to get away from)... I think the grammar supports what I'm saying. 1) go to start position 2) stand the default way unless told different. It's not a default "start position." It's a default way to stand. I'm not trying to say "I'm right, you're wrong." I'm saying "WTH is the RIGHT read?" 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. -rvb Edited October 16, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it was advantageous. And having the mindset that you are doing something is advantage, well, that's an advantage in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it was advantageous. And having the mindset that you are doing something is advantage, well, that's an advantage in itself. That's it! We have to make a rule against confidence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 It's the rules. Play within them or suffer the wrath of ______ ! fill in with whatever you like. I wonder if you start with your weak hand already at the spot that it meets the gun. IF that would seen as advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 It doesn't matter if it is an advantage or not. It doesn't comply with the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Rules are made to be broken... or in competitive shooting "bent"... The human factor again, some RO's call it and some don't... It will never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I asked this in an old thread last year. When the phrase "start position" is used, is it meant to denote a geographical location, a stance, or both? I'll have to find the old thread, but I felt that the conclusion in that thread was that with regards to 8.2.2, it was both. So a stage designer had to be careful to indicate both if he/she designated a start position that was beyond "in the shooting area". Anyway, my reading of the 8.2.2 with regards to stance is that it merely requires "arms hanging naturally by the sides". The hands can be anywhere and as relaxed or tensed up as the shooter wants them to be. And as noted earlier, there is also a front side and back side in addition to the left side and right side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Rules are made to be broken... or in competitive shooting "bent"... The human factor again, some RO's call it and some don't... It will never change. Your earlier post made it sound like you would only call it if you thought there was an advantage. ETA: I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. Edited October 16, 2012 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Rules are made to be broken... or in competitive shooting "bent"... The human factor again, some RO's call it and some don't... It will never change. Your earlier post made it sound like you would only call it if you thought there was an advantage. ETA: I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. I was just making a point... We have all seen just about everything happen at matches and it's easy to pick it apart later and discuss what or how you would have done it better... Like I have said countless times before, the human factor is a major player in our sport and instant replay doesn't exist. Exept on forums like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Everytime I think of relaxed position I see this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I'm sure that they aren't tring to push things ( the rules ) I just happens. And those weak hands look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it was advantageous. And having the mindset that you are doing something is advantage, well, that's an advantage in itself. That's it! We have to make a rule against confidence! Yeah, I'd feel confident too, that by breaking one "rule" I could buffalo or bully the RO in calling my "perfect double" a "TWO ALPHA!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Interesting point. I have always defaulted to the hands at sides no matter what the position of my feet were unless stated otherwise. Unless otherwise specified ......heels on marks is specific.....it means heels on marks ...... Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2 Hence my question in post #51. I read it differently. I haven't told you not to stand erect, to face uprange, or do anything else w/ your hands. I haven't "specified otherwise." to me, "heels on marks" is no different than "in box A" or "starting in the shooting area" Maybe I'm not in the majority in my interpretation. But I'm not alone. Regardless which is right, some people are doing/officiating it wrong. Perhaps the "default" needs removed, and we go back to doing whatever the hell you want unless specified (which is what adding the default was trying to get away from)... I think the grammar supports what I'm saying. 1) go to start position 2) stand the default way unless told different. It's not a default "start position." It's a default way to stand. I'm not trying to say "I'm right, you're wrong." I'm saying "WTH is the RIGHT read?" 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I too have wondered what the exact intent of 8.2.2 is. I think the problem is that "start position" is really three things: where do I stand/sit/etc., what direction do I face, and what do I do with my hands. 8.2.2 specifies all three, and it's not clear whether specifying one of those things in a WSB is meant to leave the other two bound by 8.2.2, or open to the competitor to do as they wish. Both readings seem equally arguable to me. Personally I would like to see a clarification issued, or 8.2.2 re-written to be more explicit on this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it was advantageous. And having the mindset that you are doing something is advantage, well, that's an advantage in itself. That's it! We have to make a rule against confidence! Yeah, I'd feel confident too, that by breaking one "rule" I could buffalo or bully the RO in calling my "perfect double" a "TWO ALPHA!" I agree with the issue of this rule enforcement. It's not being enforced very well in some situations. I just didn't like the way you portrayed it as a "thought crime" rather than a rules infraction. The day when that kind of thought crime becomes outlawed is the day USPSA will no longer be freestyle shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Everytime I think of relaxed position I see this... Attached thumbnail Was that Jake in is cowboy gear!! Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. I agree, I see no advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky #7 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Is it not the obiligation of the RO to NOT START the competitor until they ARE in the correct start position? It seems to me like this is an RO issue and not a competitor issue. I've never seen anyone twist an RO's arm to make them start the timer. Edited October 17, 2012 by lucky #7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. I agree, I see no advantage. Then why do you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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