Can you stop yourself during a stage for an REF

[theycallmeingot]

If you are shooting a stage at a level II match with a disappearing dropturner, and drop the activator, but realize the dropturner was not reset, can you, as the shooter stop yourself and ask for a REF reshoot? Or should you shoot the rest of the stage, and hope the RO saw that it never got activated?

I realize that for unpasted holes on targets, you just roll with it, because there is a chance the unpasted holes were a 45, while you're shooting 9mm, and they can still score the target. I just wasn't able to get, or find a good answer on unreset steel, or movers.

[Lee King]

You can. But I wouldn't. I always keep going. I might yell something. But it's possible you did something wrong and didn't realize it in the heat of the moment.

Opposite example, but I shot a stage where you stepped on an activator to initiate a drop turner. I shot the target right before, reloaded as I was moving to the activator. It was drop turning before I got to it. I stopped. The RO just looked at me. I said "REF". He said "No it's not". So I stopped, ULASC and got ready to argue. As soon as he said "Range is clear" he told me my own magazine hit the activator during my reload. Therefore I activated it. Nice little zero on a stage with Ms and FTEs.

If nothing else, you get a practice run on the stage.

[Poppa Bear]

You can stop yourself. The RO can either look at you and wait for you to continue without offering a reshoot, or acknowledge the REF and order the stage to be reset. In the first case your option after you finish shooting the stage is to call for the RM and explain the REF and hope that others are able to verify that the turner was not reset.

[Coach]

Never stop yourself.

[theycallmeingot]

Never stop yourself.

is that a "by the rules" answer, or a "just in case" type of thing?

[mjohn]

Rule 4.6.2

[theycallmeingot]

Rule 4.6.2

i understand that the shooter is afforded a reshoot. i am just unclear what the rules say about the shooter doing the stopping.. or if you must wait for the RO to stop you.

we do things solely under RO instruction, EXCEPT decide when we're finished shooting. That is why i'm unclear.

[coldchar]

Just keep going, you won't be the only one that saw a target was not reset.

Jim

[High Lord Gomer]

LOL @ Lee. If you didn't have 3lbs basepads it wouldn't have activated...

[mjohn]

Well............I feel like I an taking my RO Exam again. However, I can not find the exact answer to your question in the rule book. I found the answer for steel, unpasted targets, but I could not find the answer to your exact question. UGH.........

[Lee King]

LOL @ Lee. If you didn't have 3lbs basepads it wouldn't have activated...

At Toys for Tots there were a bunch of hard cover poppers set not to fall (painted black). Behind them was a row of falling poppers for score behind and between the HC poppers. A shooter we both know stood there banging away at the HC poppers while I was ROing. He looked at me. I was baffled why he was missing so bad. He hit it again and gave me this exasperated look. It dawned on me what he was doing. I said "Nothing wrong keep shooting". He hit it again dead center. Then looked at me and shouted "The %$#^ THERES NOTHING WRONG". I thought he was going to hit me for a second. I said "The black ones are hard cover. They don't fall". He stared at me for a second, then walked the rest of the COF laughing. The HC poppers were covered in the WSB, the RO explained them, he was the last shooter on the squad so everyone else had gone.

Again, brain fart and misunderstanding of REF caused him to take a TON of time... and of course ridicule.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Lee King

[theycallmeingot]

there are also times, however, when you KNOW you activated a mover, and it obviously did not move, and the shooter, if he can, might want to stop right there and not waste 30 rounds of ammunition.

in this particular instance, someone in my squad had already zeroed a stage for stopping their self because a target wasn't pasted. i figured it would be better to finish the stage and waste the ammo, and not risk zeroing the stage due to a lack of understanding of the rule.

[Skydiver]

I started a reply earlier but the browser blew up on me. I was going to advice: Never stop yourself... unless you're running low on ammo and know that there will be reshoot. If I had brought 250 rounds for a 175 round match. I wouldn't stop myself, unless I've already done 2 32-round reshoots in the previous stages and I still have 5 more stages to go and it's going to be close.

[theycallmeingot]

I started a reply earlier but the browser blew up on me. I was going to advice: Never stop yourself... unless you're running low on ammo and know that there will be reshoot. If I had brought 250 rounds for a 175 round match. I wouldn't stop myself, unless I've already done 2 32-round reshoots in the previous stages and I still have 5 more stages to go and it's going to be close.

so to be clear, stopping yourself or not, has no negative ramifications, per se, nor any bearing on whether or not you will be rewarded a reshoot?

it's just a better idea to finish the stage, in case you were mistaken, so the stage will be shot as is, (completed)?

Edited September 6, 2012 by theycallmeingot

[Kevin Pledger]

Well............I feel like I an taking my RO Exam again. However, I can not find the exact answer to your question in the rule book. I found the answer for steel, unpasted targets, but I could not find the answer to your exact question. UGH.........

The answer to the question is covered in 4.6.2.

4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken.

To me a drop turner, swinger, mover etc are moving targets.

Now in this case I would stop, as its very clear its not been reset, so I am unable to complete the CoF as required.

But to be on the safe side if you are unsure, just keep going establish a time and then argue your case.

Cheers ....

[twodownzero]

Never stop yourself.

Exactly. I thought I had this situation at A5 this year, but it turns out that I didn't actually shoot the activator. If I'd stopped myself, my time/score would have been even more painful than it was already, and let me tell you, it was pretty bad as-is.

Never stop yourself unless there is some serious safety issue with continuing to shoot.

[Sarge]

I started a reply earlier but the browser blew up on me. I was going to advice: Never stop yourself... unless you're running low on ammo and know that there will be reshoot. If I had brought 250 rounds for a 175 round match. I wouldn't stop myself, unless I've already done 2 32-round reshoots in the previous stages and I still have 5 more stages to go and it's going to be close.

so to be clear, stopping yourself or not, has no negative ramifications, per se, nor any bearing on whether or not you will be rewarded a reshoot?

it's just a better idea to finish the stage, in case you were mistaken, so the stage will be shot as is, (completed)?

More or less. I also say to never, ever, stop yourself. You should always take enough ammo to a major match to shoot the match at least twice, so that is no excuse. Reshoots only work two ways. You get TOLD to reshoot or you get OFFERED a reshoot. Nowhere is the option of ASKING for a reshoot ever mentioned anywhere.

I know it's hard to imagine but what if you and the RO were on a part of a course that was not visible to anyone else on your squad and the RO was staring at your gun to make sure were not breaking a 180. You stop and tell him that the drop turner was not reset so you want a reshoot. He tells you that he can not confirm that it was not reset. You will not get a reshoot. You can then take it to the RM. He may find that neither RO can swear that the turner was reset and may order a reshoot or he may find that the RO's can swear that it WAS reset. Eventually it may come down to your word against his and you would probably lose. Then you could arb it(if you have the cash in hand) and you may or may not end up getting a reshoot.

Like I said. Never stop yourself.

[theycallmeingot]

thanks for clearing that up, fellas.

[JD45]

Never stop yourself. I learned the hard way. There was a door at a state shoot that activated targets. Well, I opened the door and nothing happened. After looking at the RO for like 15sec, he is shrugging and not saying stop.

They said we were told to open the door like 140 degrees or something. The match director made me eat it because he couldn't get reshoots for the people it failed on in the previous squads. So now I never stop.

[mjohn]

Kevin.........Read all the posts! I had already replied Rule 4.6.2. The OP ASKED the question, does he stop himself, wait for the RO to call REF, or keep shooting til the end of the stage. SO......... your answer now is and citing what rule??????????

Now we are back to the original question.

[Nik Habicht]

I started a reply earlier but the browser blew up on me. I was going to advice: Never stop yourself... unless you're running low on ammo and know that there will be reshoot. If I had brought 250 rounds for a 175 round match. I wouldn't stop myself, unless I've already done 2 32-round reshoots in the previous stages and I still have 5 more stages to go and it's going to be close.

so to be clear, stopping yourself or not, has no negative ramifications, per se, nor any bearing on whether or not you will be rewarded a reshoot?

it's just a better idea to finish the stage, in case you were mistaken, so the stage will be shot as is, (completed)?

Here's the thing -- what if no one else saw the mover not activate? (Let's skip over the fact that that situation would be bad stage design, bad ROing, or a combination of the two.) The RO might assume that the mover activated, and completed its movement before you got a chance to shoot it. If you had to eat the score, would you prefer 2 misses and a possible FTE for the mover -- or a whole lot more misses/FTEs for the targets not engaged after the point where you stopped?

Finish the stage -- it's a best practice....

[DirtDiver]

Never stop yourself...your job is to shoot the holes in the paper or make the steel sing....the RO's job is to find those holes and supervise your shooting...don't do the RO's job.

[gunguru]

If the RO is aware, he will stop you right away...

It happen to me at the Quebec Provincial L3, two target activated by a popper, but one rope was forgoted in the reset...

[EkuJustice]

I agree never stop yourself unless your willing to accept all Mikes and FTE from that point on. There is nothing in the rule book to tell you to keep going as you can stop at any time you choose. They may or may not offer a reshoot as the activator could have been not activated ie the popper was left standing etc. Its the same for holes in a target. If they are there, keep going as the ro can score them if he can tell which were yours ie your shooting a 45 and there are both 45 and 9mm holes in the target. Unless its a safety issue, keep going till your told to stop

Edited September 7, 2012 by EkuJustice

[DWFAN]

Happened to me at IL sectional. A drop turner didnt activate, I kept going and finished the stage. RO couldnt see the turner activate, and almost didnt give me a reshoot. I'll keep finishing stages even after REF's for sure.