r o mistake

[parashooter38]

what would be the ruling if an R O put himself in front of a shooters gun during the running of a field course?

[remoandiris]

Accidentally or on purpose in front of the shooter?

To answer the question, if the shooter was negatively impacted (stopped moving, said something like "WTH?", or did something else noticeable, I would stop the shooter and give them a reshoot (and an apology) after they composed themself. And I would make sure I didn't get in front of a shooter again.

[Sarge]

This is what happened in my case. It may be right or wrong but this is what I was told.

I was ROing a young, fast shooter who ran out of ammo and with virtually no notice hauled ass uprange basically leaving me in the dust. I was beside him slightly so his gun was never pointed at me so I let it go. When I mentioned it later to some higher level NROI types I was basically told I should have DQ'd the shooter because he moved uprange of me causing a safety hazard. I guess he could argue I was just out of position but I have been lead to believe it's not my problem, it's the shooter's problem. I think if the shooter had slowed down or waited on me to move out of the way then he would have a good case for interference and a reshoot. But letting himself get uprange of me with a loaded gun was his fault.

I can't imagine an RO walking in front of a shooter on purpose unless some other problem contributed to it. I'm thinking a very new RO on a complex stage or a design flaw that created the potential for this to happen.

I think it will eventually boil down to the shooter always being responsible for his muzzle.

I guess will soon find out!

[EkuJustice]

Did he realize he was uprange of you when he took off. I would say he should have been stopped and issued a reshoot for interfearence.

Sometimes the stage design helps cause that problem. I know Flex has a video posted on here of him shooting where insteaed of going into a port to shoot he started shooting backing up. The RO was looking around the wall before continuing to follow him.

[SLM]

Who told you that it was the shooters fault you weren't fast enough to get out of the way?!

I'm definitely NOT implying anything personal here. Lets face it, we've all been run by an RO that we flatly outran.

IMO, it's RO interface, no different than the RO running into the shooter.

[mildot1]

I disagree. I think it was the RO's problem. As a RO I am not to interfere with the shooter, If I can't get out of his way I am too close. The shooter never has to tell me which way he intends to move and just because I think he is going to move forward does not mean he has to, same for right or left. I know as an RO we all like to get in the best position to see whats going on, we still need to give them room to move without worry as to our position. You basically stated that you could not keep up with him, should he be penalized for your limitations?

Respectfully

Mildot

[bbbean]

I disagree. I think it was the RO's problem. As a RO I am not to interfere with the shooter, If I can't get out of his way I am too close.

I agree, and I have given a reshoot for RO interference when a shooter moved unexpectedly on a stage and had to pull a shot because I was in the wrong position.

BB

[Tuflehundon]

I had an RO get in my way before. I had a different plan for the stage than anyone who came before me. He thought I didn't see a target and didn't say anything, but when I got to the position I planned to shoot from, he was in my way. I spotted him, yelled for him to get out of the way, and stopped shooting.

He apologized for being in the way, and not paying enough attention. I was able to reshoot, with a different RO. He didn't do anything intentionally, he just didn't know my plan, and it was a large stage with some odd angles. He had set up the stage, and didn't realize you could see the target I was going to shoot from were I was. I was engaging from around 1/2 the range everyone else did.

[Sarge]

Of course I hope everybody realizes this has nothing to do with the OP's situation. BUT from what I can gather nobody who has commented has said anything about their gun ending up pointing at the RO. If you "pull off" or stop and say "WTF" then I said that would end up in a reshoot. But if a shooters muzzle ends up pointing at somebody that is different. For all I know the RO in the OP's post just walked in front of the shooter like a dumbass.

[Sarge]

You basically stated that you could not keep up with him,

Respectfully

Mildot

Not really. I thought the guy was done and was moving in to give the commands when he must have reconsidered and bolted. I was moving one way and he was moving another. Believe me I kept up with him but I could not get ahead of him!

I later casually mentioned how big a 45 muzzle looks from that close when /i was asked, "He didn't sweep you did he"?

[SLM]

If the shooter hasn't broken the 180 and his/her muzzle ends up pointing at the RO, it's still the RO's fault in my opinion. Is it going to freak both the shooter and to RO out? Damn straight. Is it grounds for a DQ? Not in my understanding. The shooter "owns" 180° of the range and it sure isn't his/her fault somebody is trespassing.

[twodownzero]

Of course I hope everybody realizes this has nothing to do with the OP's situation. BUT from what I can gather nobody who has commented has said anything about their gun ending up pointing at the RO. If you "pull off" or stop and say "WTF" then I said that would end up in a reshoot. But if a shooters muzzle ends up pointing at somebody that is different. For all I know the RO in the OP's post just walked in front of the shooter like a dumbass.

1. There is nothing in the rules, of which I am aware, that requires me to DQ a shooter who sweeps me with his muzzle but does not otherwise violate the rules.

2. If you are the RO and a shooter has not broken the 180 and is sweeping you, you screwed up.

3. EVERY DQ must be directly supported by the rules.

4. RO interference is one of the few subjective and optional reshoots; a decent RO would offer a reshoot in this situation.

5. We would never want a rule that encouraged a shooter to keep shooting during an unsafe condition. A rule that did not allow the RO to offer a reshoot would encourage just that.

6. Thus, the shooter should receive a reshoot for this instance and cannot be DQ'ed, because as far as I know, there is not a rule that would support taking that action.

My role as a range officer is to assist the competitor to complete the course of fire safely. If I fail to do that, I have no business blaming the shooter or allowing my failure to affect his score.

That means that I will offer a reshoot, which is allowed by the rules for RO interference as long as he doesn't know his time or score.

[Poppa Bear]

I try to keep my eye on the gun when running a shooter. There are all manner of little signs that tell you what the shooter is doing. When I see the gun twisting/wrist rotating it is usually followed by the shooter twisting to go in a different direction.

This last weekend I worked a stage that had a hard 90 to the left with two targets available to the left. It also had a target available to the right that MOST shooters engaged before they took the left. When a shooter blew by the target I held my arm out to stop the other RO's and then watched the gun to see if they were going to jump back. None did, but the other RO's all knew to stay where they were at until the shooter unloaded and showed clear because there was only enough room for one person to stay with the shooter and not interfere.

If one of the other RO's had followed and the shooter started to turn back, I would have had no choice but to call stop and issue a reshoot.

[JThompson]

STOP!

Then USC followed by what the hell was that about and then make your decision on how to proceed. The bottom line is you can not allow a shooter to be up-range of you, or anyone and this is YOUR responsibility as an RO. The RO is responsible for the safety of everyone on the range, do not forget to include yourself in that equation.

JT

[Nik Habicht]

STOP!

Then USC followed by what the hell was that about and then make your decision on how to proceed. The bottom line is you can not allow a shooter to be up-range of you, or anyone and this is YOUR responsibility as an RO. The RO is responsible for the safety of everyone on the range, do not forget to include yourself in that equation.

JT

JT has it right -- Stop the shooter, recompose yourself, figure out what happened and proceed accordingly.

I have a hard time buying that pointing the muzzle at another individual, even an RO who was overrun, isn't unsafe gun handling....

[twodownzero]

I have a hard time buying that pointing the muzzle at another individual, even an RO who was overrun, isn't unsafe gun handling....

Run in front of my gun and DQ me, and we'll have a long talk at the arb about the connection between "unsafe" and "handling."

Blaming the shooter for the RO's screwup is the worst case of victim blaming that I've seen on this website to date.

[mactiger]

There is no DQ for this. It's a simple stop and a reshoot for RO interference. It happens, but it's not the competitor's fault if the RO gets out of position, and there is no rule to support disqualifying the competitor.

Troy

[bigfish]

The first mistake is the Ro needs to make sure to not put themselve in a position for this to happen. If the Ro doesnt stop the shooter when he gets beside the Ro and the Ro ends up up range that is the second mistake by the RO. It would not be fair to dq the shooter for the Ro screwing up twice on one stage. To make my point, say you shot a stage with a hallway type set up with a port on the left side and one directly across on the right side. The shooter engages the left port and the ro gets right behind the shooter or a little in front to watch the trigger finger, when the shooter turns to engage the targets in the right port chances are the ro will be between the the shooter and the target or atleast get swept by the gun during the transition. At that point do we dq the shooter for not having eyes in the back of his head to see the ro standing there?

[bigfish]

This is a great example of why we are not allowed to move though out a stage with our fingers in the trigger gaurd.

[kevin c]

I know this seems unlikely, but let me posit a scenario, based on prior behavior described to me.

There are some who may not beyond manipulating a situation to induce a reshoot if the stage run has really been blown. One situation described on these forums had a competitor wander forward of the last shooting position w/o unloading or showing clear, trying to get a stop order out of the RO after which there would be a claim that he hadn't finished and therefore should have a RS.

Similarly, what might be done if a competitor runs up range past the RO, not just from the last shooting position, but anywhere on the stage for that matter, to induce a stop order and RS after tanking his run? In the first case described, the RO can avoid saying stop, and just repeat the IF,ULASC. order. In this second case, there is a seriously hazardous situation developing where a stop order is appropriate. If the shooter claims he wanted to reengage an up range target, how are you going to say otherwise?

Yes, don't hug the shooter's position, but if this is a deliberate maneuver, it might happen at the end of the stage when the RO approaches the shooter, expecting him to stand still.

Highly unlikely, yes. I should hope no competitor would ever do such a thing, even if the gun were unloaded. But I'd like to know how to respond.

[Coach]

I know this seems unlikely, but let me posit a scenario, based on prior behavior described to me.

There are some who may not beyond manipulating a situation to induce a reshoot if the stage run has really been blown. One situation described on these forums had a competitor wander forward of the last shooting position w/o unloading or showing clear, trying to get a stop order out of the RO after which there would be a claim that he hadn't finished and therefore should have a RS.

Similarly, what might be done if a competitor runs up range past the RO, not just from the last shooting position, but anywhere on the stage for that matter, to induce a stop order and RS after tanking his run? In the first case described, the RO can avoid saying stop, and just repeat the IF,ULASC. order. In this second case, there is a seriously hazardous situation developing where a stop order is appropriate. If the shooter claims he wanted to reengage an up range target, how are you going to say otherwise?

Yes, don't hug the shooter's position, but if this is a deliberate maneuver, it might happen at the end of the stage when the RO approaches the shooter, expecting him to stand still.

Highly unlikely, yes. I should hope no competitor would ever do such a thing, even if the gun were unloaded. But I'd like to know how to respond.

I would say that the RO must stay out of the way and let the shooter proceed until he or she is finished. If something like a popper or target uprange was not engaged be prepared to retreat in a hurry. The shooter decides when they are finished and it is out of the RO's hands. If the shooter gets up range of the RO the shooter must be stopped. It does not make it right but if a shooter is determinded to do something unsportsmanlike and do so in a very sneaky fashion there is little that can be done at times. We can only call what we know and can prove.

[mildot1]

I disagree. I think it was the RO's problem. As a RO I am not to interfere with the shooter, If I can't get out of his way I am too close.

I agree, and I have given a reshoot for RO interference when a shooter moved unexpectedly on a stage and had to pull a shot because I was in the wrong position.

BB

"basically leaving me in the dust"

Was not meant to be demeaning in any way, there are a lot of shooters who can out run me!

[whitedog]

My call? No DQ. And I'm going to say reshoot. And after that, I'm going to say sorry I screwed yer plan up. It's not the shooters fault. Freestyle means freestyle. He "owns" the stage and can engage it as he wishes following all rules of course.

Edited August 29, 2012 by whitedog

[Sin-ster]

This touches on an observation I've made pretty recently at local and Major matches...

Simply put, stick the right (speedy) RO with the right (speedy) shooter whenever the possibility of getting "left in the dust" exists.

We shoot in a big sand pit at one of our club matches and often make use of the space. When I'm not asked to RO for a particularly quick shooter on one of these long courses, I offer.

In a Major, these lengthy sprints are far fewer, but I've still seen some less-than-youthful ROs dogged out at the end of 3 days on a sprinting Field Course while several younger guys spent those days basically stationary at a Speed Shoot stage. In two cases that stand out, reshoots were issued because timers failed to pick up the last shot of a speedy competitor on the field course.

Use the best tool for the job, and give the bad knees a break!

[aztecdriver]

This touches on an observation I've made pretty recently at local and Major matches...

Simply put, stick the right (speedy) RO with the right (speedy) shooter whenever the possibility of getting "left in the dust" exists.

We shoot in a big sand pit at one of our club matches and often make use of the space. When I'm not asked to RO for a particularly quick shooter on one of these long courses, I offer.

In a Major, these lengthy sprints are far fewer, but I've still seen some less-than-youthful ROs dogged out at the end of 3 days on a sprinting Field Course while several younger guys spent those days basically stationary at a Speed Shoot stage. In two cases that stand out, reshoots were issued because timers failed to pick up the last shot of a speedy competitor on the field course.

Use the best tool for the job, and give the bad knees a break!

This really comes down to match management on the RM. Gotta put the right staff in the right spots. Not an easy task, but something that takes more than a second of consideration.