Bump to open from single stack?

[mikegot38]

Today at a local match I ROd a single stack shooter. During course of fire he ran his gun dry and pulled a mag from his front jeans pocket to finish the course of fire. The front pocket was well in front of his hip bone. As the only CRO on the stage my call was that he should be bumped to open. I got the rule book out and cited to the rules and the appendix. The 2 other ROs (not sure if they really are certified ROs) said that is to harsh and assessed a procedural. They did not want to bump the shooter to opn it and I did not want to act like a jerk so I let it go. Was I wrong in my initial decision?

Edited July 22, 2012 by mikegot38

[Braxton1]

As the rules stand, yes you were wrong to not stand your ground. I agree that it is a draconian rule, but it is a rule nonetheless.

My personal opinion, which has been stated to various BoD members, is that a simple mistake in Divisional specifications should bump you to the applicable division (Limited 10 in this case), not straight to Open. I have been told that they are serious about such infractions and the penalty for such "should hurt". Shooting a 5-inch iron-sighted 8-round gun in Open does indeed "hurt"....

Edited July 22, 2012 by Braxton1

[blairmckenzie1]

if it was just a club match I would say that its a little harsh. that being said i think that "it's just a club match" gets thrown around a little too often. how much did the guy really gain by grabbing a mag from his pocket? if he was that far into a stage and was out of mags he probably wasn't winning the stage anyway. I probably would have let it slide and politely let him know...

[Sarge]

if it was just a club match I would say that its a little harsh.

No such thing as just a club match. And if he was not going to win anything anyway it is the best time to teach a harsh lesson. It "hurt" him less today than it would someday when he may be winning.

[ac4wordplay]

Bump to Open is the rule. Knowing the rule and choosing NOT to follow/enforce it... hmmm...

The competitor may not have been about to win SS, but he just received an enormous advantage over whoever he was competing with for 10th place (or whatever position it would be).

If "it's just a club match" then being bumped to Open isn't a big problem. If it were a major, then being bumped to Open would really suck. Bump to Open is correct regardless of the level of the match.

[OUshooter]

Tough call. I know the "though shall follow or be judged" crowd will be along, but I would have educated him and let it go. If he did it again then hi ho hi to open we go. I agree that "its just a club match" is a crutch sometimes, but out of context a lot of things need to be judged on their merit. A safety infraction is one thing, but a SS pulling a mag from the frt pocket is in the grey for me.

Educate and move on.

[HI5-O]

Your initial call was correct.

Last week I bumped an L-10 shooter to Open since his mags were too long.

[Skydiver]

Tough call. I know the "though shall follow or be judged" crowd will be along, but I would have educated him and let it go. If he did it again then hi ho hi to open we go. I agree that "its just a club match" is a crutch sometimes, but out of context a lot of things need to be judged on their merit. A safety infraction is one thing, but a SS pulling a mag from the frt pocket is in the grey for me.

Educate and move on.

And if the same shooter in the same match later fires 11 shots before a reload but had declared Major, another "educate and let it go" session?

[Skydiver]

Your initial call was correct.

Last week I bumped an L-10 shooter to Open since his mags were too long.

He was using 170mm double stack mags?

[HI5-O]

Your initial call was correct.

Last week I bumped an L-10 shooter to Open since his mags were too long.

He was using 170mm double stack mags?

STI 140 tubes with a plus 2 base pad (double stack).

[OUshooter]

Tough call. I know the "though shall follow or be judged" crowd will be along, but I would have educated him and let it go. If he did it again then hi ho hi to open we go. I agree that "its just a club match" is a crutch sometimes, but out of context a lot of things need to be judged on their merit. A safety infraction is one thing, but a SS pulling a mag from the frt pocket is in the grey for me.

Educate and move on.

And if the same shooter in the same match later fires 11 shots before a reload but had declared Major, another "educate and let it go" session?

Negative. If he pulls that then it would be obvious to me the he is torquing the rules. If he gripes and doesn't like it, then our 80+ monthly match will be fine w/o him.

Actually if I happen to be on the same squad and he pulls the 11rd crap the next month then there is no discussion just a bump to open.

I enjoy being a hard$*# but I also have a very distinct distaste for zero tolerance, with the exception of any safety issues.

[sperman]

It saddnes me to see how many people think the rulebook can be ignored because "it's just a local match."

[GrumpyOne]

It saddnes me to see how many people think the rulebook can be ignored because "it's just a local match."

I'm still trying to find the local match rule book. Been looking for it for years, still no luck......

[remoandiris]

It saddnes me to see how many people think the rulebook can be ignored because "it's just a local match."

+1.

[Poppa Bear]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request

These are the local rules.

If it is a new shooter still learning the game then you educate. We had one yesterday shooting his first match so he was being reminded to reload as he moved, and educated on 10 in the gun for an unloaded start but a loaded start you can barney mag for 11. So I look at this as depending on the situation. A rules Nazi approach can drive away a new shooter still learning the game. Safety should never be ignored but in some cases it is better to educate than to stomp on them.

[Anopsis]

Tough call

No, it's not a tough call at all, just an uncomfortable one. It's not even open to interpretation, no 'gray area'. It's in black and white in the rule book.

You might not like making the call; I wouldn't either, but it's the right one to make.

[Poppa Bear]

I had two shooters yesterday that if they had pulled a mag out of their front pocket I would have explained why they could not do that. Both were new to the game and shooting their first matches. ANYONE else who did that would have gone to open, but they were all established shooters with 6 mag pouches on their belts who know the rules for mag locations.

[GrumpyOne]

I had two shooters yesterday that if they had pulled a mag out of their front pocket I would have explained why they could not do that. Both were new to the game and shooting their first matches. ANYONE else who did that would have gone to open, but they were all established shooters with 6 mag pouches on their belts who know the rules for mag locations.

And how would it have hurt them to be bumped to open? Established or not, the rules are for everyone. IMO, if they had pulled mags from front pockets, and you only warned them, then you did these shooters a disservice, along with everyone else at the match.

[JMIS]

I think I shot the same match yesterday but not in the same squad. Unless you have the same RO for every squad, the rules will never be called the same. One squad RO might let the mag thing slip by while the other will bump the fellow shooter to Open. I think the MD should hold the rule book up in the air and say we follow this rule book with no exceptions no matter if your new or not. Also, sorry to say not every RO knows the rule book so the rules will never be equal at a match of club level... yes I said it, "club level"!

[Poppa Bear]

It would not have hurt either of them because I do not think either one really even cared what division they were shooting in. They were doing it because it is fun and they wanted to join us. Honestly I think I would have been surprised if they had pulled a mag out of their pocket just because they asked a lot of questions before they shot their first match. They will be back again and again because we did get them hooked on how much fun it is. They want to do things right, which is a big plus for them.

I think a better explanation as to how I look at it, is they ask questions. We do out part to educate them on the proper way to do things. They still find a way to break an equipment rule, so I would take some of the blame for not explaining it to them.

In this case neither broke any rules, both asked a lot of good questions about 180's/steel/stage planning while walking through an actual stage. They were also educated on mags in pockets because they did ask why some people were pulling a mag out of their back pocket just to load one round.

[Anopsis]

Last month I had a first time shooter in Production who didn't know about the 10 round limit! After I counted 17 rounds fired per mag, I had to bump him.

It sucked because he didn't do it intentionally, but it's the rules.

[motosapiens]

If it were a major, then being bumped to Open would really suck. Bump to Open is correct regardless of the level of the match.

Why would being bumped to open suck? You still get to shoot and have fun and see all your scores and compare them to others, right? Sure, you aren't likely to win the motorhome as top singlestack D-class shooter, but so what? Heck, our local matches are so small we don't even have motorhomes for single-stack class-winners, only boats.

[sperman]

Your initial call was correct.

Last week I bumped an L-10 shooter to Open since his mags were too long.

He was using 170mm double stack mags?

STI 140 tubes with a plus 2 base pad (double stack).

Just to play devli's advocate for a minute...

Did you measure the mags or use the gage? How many other competitors did you check to see if their mags were legal?

I'm torn on this issue. If you know someone is using equpiment that isn't legal for their division, you don't want to ignore it. On the other hand, if you aren't going to measure every competitors mags, is it right to bump one guy to open when there may be several other competitors whos mags are too long?

[Steven Cline]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request

These are the local rules.

Ahem, no they aren't. Those be national rules. 8.6.2.1 allows for coaching at a Level I.

Neither states- make your own crap up at a "local match."

If it is a new shooter still learning the game then you educate. We had one yesterday shooting his first match so he was being reminded to reload as he moved, and educated on 10 in the gun for an unloaded start but a loaded start you can barney mag for 11. So I look at this as depending on the situation. A rules Nazi approach can drive away a new shooter still learning the game. Safety should never be ignored but in some cases it is better to educate than to stomp on them.

At what point would you let me get away with breaking the rules?

[Poppa Bear]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request

These are the local rules.

Ahem, no they aren't. Those be national rules. 8.6.2.1 allows for coaching at a Level I.

Neither states- make your own crap up at a "local match."

If it is a new shooter still learning the game then you educate. We had one yesterday shooting his first match so he was being reminded to reload as he moved, and educated on 10 in the gun for an unloaded start but a loaded start you can barney mag for 11. So I look at this as depending on the situation. A rules Nazi approach can drive away a new shooter still learning the game. Safety should never be ignored but in some cases it is better to educate than to stomp on them.

At what point would you let me get away with breaking the rules?

Probably at no point because if I have done my job right you know the equipment location and mag restrictions for your division before you come to the line.

As to 8.6.2.1 I look at level 1 as 1C, 1B and 1A.

Level 1C is your local training/practice match. You introduce the new shooters to the sport. You spend a lot of time talking them through the routine. The more established shooters are giving lots of advice and allowing others to try out their guns. More emphasis is put on educating the shooters than on strict rule enforcement. The match might be 3 simple stages, with shooters reshooting the stages to try different plans. This is entirely a learning match.

Level 1B is the 4 to 5 stage match where it is all a friendly competition between all of the shooters. Rules are more strictly enforced, call it 95%. You do not worry about arbitration. You use the level 1 exemption a bit because you only have 4 hours to set up, shoot, and tear everything down. The match has no real meaning other than bragging rights. If you shoot a classifier, people can bring a second or third gun to get classified in another division. This is our usual monthly match.

1A is your 60+ shooter match where you bring in shooters from all over the area. Rules are strictly enforced. Stages are set up at least one day prior. You are very much competing against others in your division and class. This could easily be a level 2 match the way stages are set up, shot, and scored.

You pull a mag out of your front pocket at a 1C I will educate you on the rules. 1B or 1A, you will get bumped.