Rules Trivia (Coaching)

[Sarge]

In an effort to show how easy it is to inadvertently violate the rules I thought I'd throw this out there for discussion

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

While shooting a stage with multiple strings, each consisting of a different start position AND method of engagement the RO's were reading to each shooter, after make ready, the start position and method of engagement for each string. About half way through the squad it dawned on me that this is coaching which is a violation of the above rules. I suppose reminding a shooter of the correct start position is not an issue since it is up to the RO to ensure the start position is correct before starting the shooter. BUT they should not have been reminding the shooter to engage certain strings freestyle, certain strings strong hand, certain strings weak hand, etc. Since the methods of engagement are subject to penalties the shooters should not have been coached in that regard Correct? Yes it was a level I match but the shooters were not asking for assistance they were just being given the info right before the start signal.

[juan]

In an effort to show how easy it is to inadvertently violate the rules I thought I'd throw this out there for discussion

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

While shooting a stage with multiple strings, each consisting of a different start position AND method of engagement the RO's were reading to each shooter, after make ready, the start position and method of engagement for each string. About half way through the squad it dawned on me that this is coaching which is a violation of the above rules. I suppose reminding a shooter of the correct start position is not an issue since it is up to the RO to ensure the start position is correct before starting the shooter. BUT they should not have been reminding the shooter to engage certain strings freestyle, certain strings strong hand, certain strings weak hand, etc. Since the methods of engagement are subject to penalties the shooters should not have been coached in that regard Correct? Yes it was a level I match but the shooters were not asking for assistance they were just being given the info right before the start signal.

is it possible to coach before the beep ?

I see no problem before the beep.

[aztecdriver]

In an effort to show how easy it is to inadvertently violate the rules I thought I'd throw this out there for discussion

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

While shooting a stage with multiple strings, each consisting of a different start position AND method of engagement the RO's were reading to each shooter, after make ready, the start position and method of engagement for each string. About half way through the squad it dawned on me that this is coaching which is a violation of the above rules. I suppose reminding a shooter of the correct start position is not an issue since it is up to the RO to ensure the start position is correct before starting the shooter. BUT they should not have been reminding the shooter to engage certain strings freestyle, certain strings strong hand, certain strings weak hand, etc. Since the methods of engagement are subject to penalties the shooters should not have been coached in that regard Correct? Yes it was a level I match but the shooters were not asking for assistance they were just being given the info right before the start signal.

is it possible to coach before the beep ?

I see no problem before the beep.

Hightlighted above - after Make Ready you are in the course of fire.

Another note, being the RO is coaching, apparently they approve - but they weren't requesting it.

Very interesting...

[Braxton1]

Isn't one of the duties of an RO "to assist the shooter"?

If so, then reminding them of string requirements on a multi-string stage is not coaching, per se.

I'd say that "coaching" in this sense would be something like, "All of your shots on that last string went way left." or the more-involved "rules lesson": "Hey Bob, you threw a miss on Target 2 at 25 yards. You might want to make it up on the strong-hand string at 7. You'll eat the Extra Shot penalty, but you'll gain back the 5 on paper.".

(Those who know me know that I am not casting stones here. I'm guilty too. I am a professional instructor... I sometimes just can't help myself!!)

[Anopsis]

Let's not get hung up on the word 'coaching', since the rule book uses 'assistance' in this case!

I agree on start position, but the rest should be done before MR command unless it's lvl 1 and requested.

Personally, when I put a shooter on the line and I know he's less experienced AND/OR it's a complex stage, I'll ask if they have any questions or understand the course of fire. This is just a courtesy; not required obviously. Once I give the MR command it's commands & warnings only until after Range Clear.

[Nik Habicht]

Cute Kevin.....

So how do you handle this:

Comp:"what's the procedure for String 3?"

RO: "I can't tell you that, it would be coaching. Are you Ready?"

Comp: "Not Ready."

Rinse, lather, repeat.....

[Flexmoney]

We'd never get a match done if I couldn't tell shooters what the hand position was when asked (after MR).

Perhaps it needs tweaked... relaying information from the WSB, before the start signal of any stage or string, shall not be considered assistance during the cof... not that I have ever seen this be an issue.

Kevin, if you felt it was wrong, did you file a 3rd party arbitration at the match?

[Gary Stevens]

Maybe I did not understand the question, but I don't see this being different than reading each section of a multi-string standards. "From the 50 yard line ..." "From the 25 yard line ..." etc. etc.

[Poppa Bear]

I can see how coaching could slip into this. You remind the shooter that the start position is a surrender start facing downrange strong hand only, instead of just telling them it is a surrender start facing downrange. They can always ask, even at a level II and up, if this is the SH only string. They can always ask for the WSB so they can read it themselves before acknowledging they are ready so I see no problem with answering their question if asked.

[Poppa Bear]

Maybe I did not understand the question, but I don't see this being different than reading each section of a multi-string standards. "From the 50 yard line ..." "From the 25 yard line ..." etc. etc.

Which is fine if you are a dedicated RO who reads the WSB to every shooter as they come to the line, but what if you are embedded and half the squads read it to everyone and the other half leave it up to the shooter to remember?

[Steve Anderson]

I think Pandora has a can of worms in this box.

[rvb]

I think Pandora has a can of worms in this box.

Or this mole hill thinks it's a mountain...

-rvb

[Chuck Anderson]

8.3.6.1 When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may

issue other interim commands on completion of the first string,

in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent

strings. (e.g. “Reload if required and holster”). This option may

also be applied when two or more courses of fire share a common

shooting bay or area.

If it was me I'd look to this rule to justify the further stage description. It doesn't specifically limit what the range commands might be.

[Graham Smith]

I've seen cases where a shooter has asked that the written instructions be re-read but never a case where the RO took it upon themselves to give string by string instructions on a stage to anyone other than a new and inexperienced shooter.

8.6.2.1, as written, implies that someone other than the RO can offer some coaching. That's not really an opening for the RO to offer coaching to every shooter.

[lcs]

I was at the same match that Kevin is referring to, but I was on a different squad. I don't think "coaching" applies or even can be construed to apply on the Stage.

The WSB had four strings. Two of the strings were hands up or surrender position, and two strings were hands at sides and all strings were 1 shot on each target, 2 freestyle, 1 week hand, 1 strong hand, but the WSB did not specify what start position went with what string. So, you could decide your order. The ROs were even having a problem remembering what the last string was. Did I mention it was 96 degrees.

I did not feel any RO on our squad was coaching by making sure each shooter was performing the correct string by telling them the start position and freestyle or weak/strong hand.

Coaching would be if the RO was advising "how" to shoot it or after the beep yells "weak hand" because the shooter was starting to shoot freestyle on a weak/strong hand string.

JMHO.

[MarkCO]

Obviously I was not there, and heat or no heat, lcs appears to have it correct.

While I consider it VERY bad form for ROs at L2 and higher matches to tell subsequent squads the best method, give tricks or tips, it is not forbidden by written rule.

Only time it is coaching is when the timer is running according to the written rules.

[Skydiver]

So let me get this straight: It's not coaching to tell the shooter "remember that this string is freestyle, reload, and then weak hand only", but it is coaching to say something like "remember to rack the slide to put a round into the chamber for this string" if the RO notices that the shooter forgot to rack the slide? So it's okay for the RO to ignore 8.6.1 but not okay to ignore 8.1?

[z40acp]

You mean, you would not mention it to the shooter that he did not rack his slide?

[Skydiver]

You mean, you would not mention it to the shooter that he did not rack his slide?

I used to until somebody reminded me of:

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

[Sarge]

I was at the same match that Kevin is referring to, but I was on a different squad. I don't think "coaching" applies or even can be construed to apply on the Stage.

The WSB had four strings. Two of the strings were hands up or surrender position, and two strings were hands at sides and all strings were 1 shot on each target, 2 freestyle, 1 week hand, 1 strong hand, but the WSB did not specify what start position went with what string. So, you could decide your order. The ROs were even having a problem remembering what the last string was. Did I mention it was 96 degrees.

I did not feel any RO on our squad was coaching by making sure each shooter was performing the correct string by telling them the start position and freestyle or weak/strong hand.

Coaching would be if the RO was advising "how" to shoot it or after the beep yells "weak hand" because the shooter was starting to shoot freestyle on a weak/strong hand string.

JMHO.

Buddy you must have been at a different match than me because here is what I am talking about.

WSB stated:

String one, start position hands at sides, freestyle.

String two, start position wrists above shoulders, freestyle.

String three, start position hands at sides, strong hand only.

String four, start position wrists above shoulders, weak hand only.

And yes it was only one round per target but that is neither here nor there.

What was happening was the RO would read each of the sentences listed above when that particular string was up. It occurred to me about half way through the stage that this could be construed as assistance since the COF had already started with "make ready". Reminding the shooter of the start position is no big deal. But it seams telling every shooter which hand to shoot with was a little TMI.

And I'll throw this in there just to possibly make another argument for why it should not be done. Guess who was the one shooter who did not get all the rereading of the string info when it was his turn to shoot? Right, me. What if I had not used the correct method of engagement and gotten penalties? Seems I could make an argument for getting them reversed?

As usual, I will state again that this is a learning exercise. It's not about mountains and molehills or filing 3rd party Arbs.

Please feel free to just read along with the thread and probably learn a thing or two.

[Sarge]

While I consider it VERY bad form for ROs at L2 and higher matches to tell subsequent squads the best method, give tricks or tips, it is not forbidden by written rule. Agreed.

Only time it is coaching is when the timer is running according to the written rules. Which rule is that please? The only thing I see is under 8.6 which pertains to assistance during the COF. Which is any time after make ready not just when the timer is running.

[MarkCO]

While I consider it VERY bad form for ROs at L2 and higher matches to tell subsequent squads the best method, give tricks or tips, it is not forbidden by written rule. Agreed.

Only time it is coaching is when the timer is running according to the written rules. Which rule is that please? The only thing I see is under 8.6 which pertains to assistance during the COF. Which is any time after make ready not just when the timer is running.

Kevin, sorry, lazy response on my part. You are right, it should be during the COF which starts with "Make Ready" and ends with "Range is clear."

[MarkCO]

You mean, you would not mention it to the shooter that he did not rack his slide?

NOPE. Forbidden.

[Skydiver]

Or consider shooting the classifiers CM99-59 Lazy Man Standards or CM03-14 Baseball Standards with just the the start position reminders. Both have all strings with the same start position for all strings: wrists above respective shoulders facing the targets.

If there was no prompting for each string, I would probably write small notes on the back of my weak hand to remind myself what is required for each string.

[Joe4d]

Its a shooting game that scores people on shooting, not a mind fart game. If your stage is so jacked up an RO needs to recite procedures then maybe the problem is the stage not the coaching. Sounds like the RO is getting shooters through a stage the best and fairest way he could.