Sarge Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 but I could not find a rule on what constitutes "move away" from start location. Is it one step, one foot, two feet.... It's simple. There isn't one. Then that leads to inconsistencies on what constitutes "away", it should be spelled out and not vague. Only one of many vague rules in the book. I have heard some use the basketball rule for this. i.e keeping one foot planted after make ready. In general most shooters will stay in place once they get make ready. Some will try to walk away and a very few will bust out of the location and run to a wall. I just let them know when they are finished that there is a rule against it and they are taking quite a risk by doing it. Now if you tell them to not do it or you tell them to return to the start location and they don't then there are rules in place to support DQ's. I want to add this. (I am not trying to give you a hard time) We had an RO class locally a few weeks ago or so and some of the new RO's were working a local match. A shooter did something that caught them by surprise and they debated for several minutes about whether they should DQ him. I pointed out that being an RO is not about trying to find ways to DQ shooters and if they are still looking for a rule and debating it five minutes later there probably was no cause for a DQ. Generally DQ's reach right out and slap you in the face. You KNOW when one happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match, Are we 100% sure this is a stand alone rule? Or is it just a general restating of the fact than you can be DQ'd for violating any of the rules that are already covered by more specific DQ clauses? I think this rule leaves the door wide open for an RO to DQ somebody for what he thinks is unsafe as opposed to what the rules define as unsafe. Virtually every unsafe act we could possibly commit is covered by a rule already. I would have stopped the shooter and told him to get back to the start location and figure out another way to take care of whatever it was he was taking care of. Once this RO allowed him to leave without saying anything he became an accessory to the crime. No DQ. Section 10.3 essentially describes (sets out) the purpose and procedure for issuing a match DQ under the specific/general rules cited in section 10.4 and 10.5..... No DQ under 10.3.1..... I don't know what if anything the shooter might have said to the RO; I can't definitively tell if he didn't get RO permission.... If he hadn't, and wasn't well known to the RO, then the RO should have issued the "Stop" command, and resolved the situation..... It's also possible that the competitor and RO shoot together every weekend, that this is "anticipated and expected" behavior on the part of the competitor, and that the RO was both aware and comfortable with the situation. That approach might be problematic if the shooter shoots a bigger match, and forgets to tell the RO.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 I would probably not DQ the shooter, but I would probably say something after the course. Possible DQs could be 10.5, in that unsafe gun handling is not limited to the list, having a loaded firearm outside of the direction of the range officer, and/or under 10.6 for not following directions of the range officer. Either way, what happened there is not really a big deal and I would not DQ. The one in bold would be tough if the RO gave the "Make Ready" command...... 10.6 would be hard unless the shooter ignored multiple "Stop" commands, or reacted to the first one and then ignored it.... Really this situation is best handled by "controlling the range" on the part of the RO.... Stop the shooter, identify and address his need, go on with the show.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 you should dq that stage designer I was thinking the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Shooter leaves the shooters box with a loaded handgun. I couldn't find a rule # that would DQ this shooter. He leaves the box with a loaded and holstered handgun. Also, he appeared to have been supervised quite closely by the RO to me. Further he leaves the box with a loaded and unholstered handgun multiple times throughout the stage. No DQ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 but I could not find a rule on what constitutes "move away" from start location. Is it one step, one foot, two feet.... It's simple. There isn't one. Then that leads to inconsistencies on what constitutes "away", it should be spelled out and not vague. Only one of many vague rules in the book. I have heard some use the basketball rule for this. i.e keeping one foot planted after make ready. In general most shooters will stay in place once they get make ready. Some will try to walk away and a very few will bust out of the location and run to a wall. I just let them know when they are finished that there is a rule against it and they are taking quite a risk by doing it. Now if you tell them to not do it or you tell them to return to the start location and they don't then there are rules in place to support DQ's. I want to add this. (I am not trying to give you a hard time) We had an RO class locally a few weeks ago or so and some of the new RO's were working a local match. A shooter did something that caught them by surprise and they debated for several minutes about whether they should DQ him. I pointed out that being an RO is not about trying to find ways to DQ shooters and if they are still looking for a rule and debating it five minutes later there probably was no cause for a DQ. Generally DQ's reach right out and slap you in the face. You KNOW when one happens. No offense taken, I welcome the debate, it makes me think and that is always a good thing. I agree a DQ offense is something that jumps out at you, kind of gets you in the pit of your stomach, not typically an issue that requires lengthy debate. I've not been shooting USPSA long, about 1.5 years, but I've witnessed several DQs and they are moments that get your attention even before a RO yells STOP. I'm really not looking forward to calling my first DQ, but at the same time I know it will happen and there won't be a doubt in my mind that when I call it, it will be for the right reason and not because I have some power trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 IMO, no DQ on this. Simple explanation in private after the COF has been shot and scored. In my experience, Arb Committees WANT to find ways to uphold appeals...NOT to tamp down ROs and their decisions, but to keep shooters in the match. Same with RMs. If there is a hint of a way to keep a shooter in the match, they want to take it. Nothing is personal in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Ya, DQ the RO for letting the shooter get away in the first place. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 In my experience, Arb Committees WANT to find ways to uphold appeals...NOT to tamp down ROs and their decisions, but to keep shooters in the match. Same with RMs. If there is a hint of a way to keep a shooter in the match, they want to take it. Nothing is personal in this. When RMing a match, I don't want to keep competitors in the match, nor do I want to kick them out..... I want my staff to provide a safe and fair competitive environment and the shooters to have a good time..... When a dq comes up, I want to try to facilitate a discussion and understanding of what transpired among all the parties -- usually, once things are clear, everyone knows what the right call is.... I don't like it when someone finishes early, but I know the shooter (really everyone) would like it less if he continued and there was an accident...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I would probably not DQ the shooter, but I would probably say something after the course. Possible DQs could be 10.5, in that unsafe gun handling is not limited to the list, having a loaded firearm outside of the direction of the range officer, and/or under 10.6 for not following directions of the range officer. Either way, what happened there is not really a big deal and I would not DQ. The one in bold would be tough if the RO gave the "Make Ready" command...... 10.6 would be hard unless the shooter ignored multiple "Stop" commands, or reacted to the first one and then ignored it.... Really this situation is best handled by "controlling the range" on the part of the RO.... Stop the shooter, identify and address his need, go on with the show.... Nope. Make ready doesn't allow you to leave the box before the beep. Your actions are beyond my instructions and thus outside the directions of the range officer. If the Make Ready command allowed you to do whatever you want, we wouldn't DQ people for shots fired before the beep or for loading the gun with their finger on the trigger. The fact is that the Make Ready command allows CERTAIN actions, including having a loaded firearm if the stage calls for that, but as soon as the competitor deviates from that, with a loaded gun, my reading of those two rules allow a DQ. A person who has left the box with a loaded firearm has deviated from my directions. The potential for something unsafe to happen when a competitor who is loaded and holstered turns around and leaves the box is much higher than if he stayed facing downrange. Every step someone takes with a holstered and loaded firearm is one step closer to an accident that our rules generally try to avoid in the name of safety. This is one of those rare instances where a DQ is not an objective question. The instance in the video isn't that serious and wouldn't warrant such an extreme response as to DQ the shooter, but it is still inappropriate competitor action and potentially unsafe. The spirit of the rules send the shooter to Dairy Queen for nearly all infractions that occur while the gun is loaded and I don't see how this one is any different. Make ready allows you to handle your gun, but not to aim it uprange. Make ready allows you to take a sight picture, but not leave the box. Make ready allows you to have a loaded and holstered gun, but not to do a second walk through. We allow leeway in waiting for the shooter to get in the proper start position, but we do not allow things that are potentially unsafe. Most shooters who have been dealing with this game for a while and/or who are range officers wouldn't ever cut it this close to the line. They would say something and/or ask. That's all our rules really ask of the shooter and I don't think that's asking too much. That said, I don't send a shooter home unless I really have to. The total number that has been is still well in the single digits, and I prefer to keep it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I don't think I would have DQ'ed them, but as soon as they made a move to turn around and leave, I'd ask them what the hell they're doing and to get back in the box. Then, If it is something they need back in their bag, ULSC, or if they need to get rid of something, I can take it from them and hold it, or give it to the scorer or another person to hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackdr1ver Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 No DQ. No unsafe action. But the RO should have stopped him after the first couple of steps to figure out what was going on. +1 on stage designer DQ! Those boxes, yuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leewhiskey Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 As that RO I would have not let him leave the box. It doesn't look like the shooter said anything to the RO, just turned and walked away. The only reason we know where the shooter went is because it shows it in the video. What if it didn't? If a shooter says nothing, how would any RO know where they are going with a loaded gun? In my mind, by the rulebook, that is a DQ for leaving the start location. 8.3.1.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfchorn Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 As that RO I would have not let him leave the box. It doesn't look like the shooter said anything to the RO, just turned and walked away. The only reason we know where the shooter went is because it shows it in the video. What if it didn't? If a shooter says nothing, how would any RO know where they are going with a loaded gun? In my mind, by the rulebook, that is a DQ for leaving the start location. 8.3.1.1 Please show me exactly where in the rulebook the specific penalty for leaving the start box is defined. We can't mold the rules to fit our belief of what is right or wrong, should or shouldn't be allowed, what should be penalized and how. The rules are pretty specific on the when, how, and how many when it comes to penalties. A big clue is that if the offense warranted a DQ, it wouldn't be in chapter 8. It would be in chapter 10...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) A big clue is that if the offense warranted a DQ, it wouldn't be in chapter 8. It would be in chapter 10...... If that is true, then explain why removing a belt with a gun still in the holster is a DQ under 5.2.1 according to this NROI ruling. Does this mean it shouldn't be a DQ? Edited April 30, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leewhiskey Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 As that RO I would have not let him leave the box. It doesn't look like the shooter said anything to the RO, just turned and walked away. The only reason we know where the shooter went is because it shows it in the video. What if it didn't? If a shooter says nothing, how would any RO know where they are going with a loaded gun? In my mind, by the rulebook, that is a DQ for leaving the start location. 8.3.1.1 Please show me exactly where in the rulebook the specific penalty for leaving the start box is defined. We can't mold the rules to fit our belief of what is right or wrong, should or shouldn't be allowed, what should be penalized and how. The rules are pretty specific on the when, how, and how many when it comes to penalties. A big clue is that if the offense warranted a DQ, it wouldn't be in chapter 8. It would be in chapter 10...... 10.3.1- "A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity..." Does 8.3.1.1 not define a prohibited action? He did not ask permission, I watched the video several times over, nothing was said between the two. He just walked away. I agree the RO should have stopped him. I see shooters here and there who need something from their bag or need to get rid of something after make ready. Don't know if I've ever seen another shooter refuse to help out with whatever they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Total fail on the part of the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfchorn Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 A big clue is that if the offense warranted a DQ, it wouldn't be in chapter 8. It would be in chapter 10...... If that is true, then explain why removing a belt with a gun still in the holster is a DQ under 5.2.1 according to this NROI ruling. Does this mean it shouldn't be a DQ? Agreed. Point taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Slight thread drift ahead... considering how much video is out there, i was just wondering if it would be possible or worthwile to have an NROI channel on YouTube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 This is one of those scenarios where not enough information may be available to properly talk about this situation. The troubling part to me is that the first thing folks think of when they see something "out of the ordinary" is to DQ the shooter. In order for this shooter to have been DQ'ed, what safety infraction actually occurred? The folks believing a DQ may be appropriate are citing 8.3.1.1 and thus 10..3.1. However unless those folks were at that match, in that squad, and heard everything said between that RO and competitor, you cannot say that the shooter violated 8.3.1.1 because you don't know if he already had prior approval from that RO. I don't think anyone can legitimately say the shooter left an area that wasn't under the direct supervision of the RO (he was only a few feet from the start position). So the RO could have given prior approval and the shooter never left his direct supervision.....therefore what infraction occurred? Granted, allowing the shooter to go behind the start position is definitely not advisable and thus something an RO should typically not approve, but the shooter never violated a safety rule. People supporting and/or considering a DQ - this is why video is not allowed in arbitration. It doesn't always show the entire story. In fact the RO's reaction, or lack thereof, is more telling to me that the shooter did not do anything to the surprise of the RO. Would the folks supporting or considering a DQ have the exact same opinion if the shooter had gone a few feet IN FRONT OF THE SHOOTING POSITION? A little background story on this specific addition to 8.3.1.1 (Gary or the other long-time shooters may have a different recollection). Many rules come about because of something that happens that no one thought of previously. Well, this rule modification came about because there was nothing preventing a shooter from running around the stage with a drawn gun, even a loaded one, while "loading and making ready." And I am sure everyone can agree that having to chase a shooter around the stage unnecessarily is something you don't want allowed at your match. Therefore, when that previously unforeseen scenario actually occurred, the rule modification was added to 8.3.1.1. So the act of leaving the box after the start command is not in itself a safety infraction, it is simply a prohibited action. And for that reason, the rule gives the RO some flexibility to manage their stage/shooters as they see best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Slight thread drift ahead... considering how much video is out there, i was just wondering if it would be possible or worthwile to have an NROI channel on YouTube. You really want to enhance the discussions we are having in front of a youtube audience? Have you seen some of the comment threads out there? I'll stay with the incivility we have here at times, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 You can disable comments on a youtube video. You can also set it up so that the video is not searchable. You basically must have the link to begin with. That would keep all the 11 year old C.O.D. and airsoft players away. Just an idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 You can disable comments on a youtube video. You can also set it up so that the video is not searchable. You basically must have the link to begin with. That would keep all the 11 year old C.O.D. and airsoft players away. Just an idea.... Yeah - I was being silly more than serious. I was just considering adding another media mode to our discussions here might be - well - interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I finally watched the whole video you should dq that stage designer Best reply of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzo808 Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) This is the description on the YouTube video. Maybe it'll help a little bit. "Dan Shooting Day 1 at the 1st Annual Monster Mash: Never Ever leave the shooters box with a loaded gun. I should have put the tap in my pocket. I did not realize this until after I saw this video. This goes to show why video helps and doesn't help. I'm lucky I was not DQ'd." Edited April 30, 2012 by renzo808 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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