Would you DQ this shooter after LAMR?

[renzo808]

Shooter leaves the shooters box with a loaded handgun. I couldn't find a rule # that would DQ this shooter.

[stein]

I know this video has been discussed in another thread - haven't found it yet.

[mhop]

you should dq that stage designer

[renzo808]

I know this video has been discussed in another thread - haven't found it yet.

I tried searching under the USPSA/IPSC Rules thread but couldn't find anything relevant to this. If you find it, please share the link. Thank you.

[sfpmb]

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competi- tor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

10.3 Match Disqualification – General Regulations

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match, and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

At minimum he Could have notified you of the movement or asked someone to come to the line and take what he wanted away

[aztecdriver]

I would say No. He shouldn't have left the box - but this occurs occasionally when people just want to dump something off or forget something at their bag and they forget they've loaded up.

In this situation, the RO should have stopped them from leaving, but instead they watched them the entire time and didn't seem to have a problem with it. They were never more than a step behind the box and within arms length of the RO.

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

He didn't ask for prior approval, so one might make the case for 10.5 or even

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

Just an opinion, looking for further points...

[lilbeauxdawg]

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competi- tor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

10.3 Match Disqualification – General Regulations

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match, and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

At minimum he Could have notified you of the movement or asked someone to come to the line and take what he wanted away

What he said and as soon as the shooter turn around the RO should have stopped him and asked what he is doing. I wouldn't DQ someone for this but I would warn them to let the RO know what they are doing.

[jdphotoguy]

Both that shooter and RO need to read the rule book now, not later.

Rule 8.3.1.1 states the shooter after issued the "Make Ready" command must not move away from the start position prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without prior approval and under that direct supervision, of the RO.

Could rule 10.5.13 be applied as the competitor had a loaded handgun when not specified by a RO. ex. he was not given permission to leave the shooting area and as such left the COF with a loaded handgun and was not under supervision of the RO.

[Ben Stoeger]

you should dq that stage designer

Shooting Boxes are SOOOOOO 1997

[sfpmb]

What he said and as soon as the shooter turn around the RO should have stopped him and asked what he is doing. I wouldn't DQ someone for this but I would warn them to let the RO know what they are doing.

Ditto, I was just citing the rule. As the RO I would have stopped him before the prohibited action and made the remedy for the shooter at the line. This does come up at the places I shoot and we deal with it right there, the shooter tells me the issue and we get support up to fix it. At the make ready point though, the RO is in charge, but they have to be in charge. The ro in this video may feel ok, I am not focusing on them, just making that point.

[jdphotoguy]

Not trying to be an RO Nazi, but if we let people slide on DQ offenses are we really doing anyone a favor? As much as it hurts to DQ someone for what might seem minor, there is a reason it's a DQ offense and not a penalty.

With that said, the RO was at fault big time for letting the shooter leave the box and not saying anything. Both the shooter and RO are responsible for safety.

Edited April 29, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[shootingchef]

what is defined as the start position? if there are XX's and not a box, how far away do you have to be to be considered "away?" most folks make ready then get into the start position. Having a box makes it easy, but XX's and marks make this very vague.

[DonovanM]

No, but I would have told him not to do that again without asking.

[jdphotoguy]

what is defined as the start position? if there are XX's and not a box, how far away do you have to be to be considered "away?" most folks make ready then get into the start position. Having a box makes it easy, but XX's and marks make this very vague.

The Start Position is defined in the WSB and I can not quote the exact rule, but the competitor can not move more then one step away from the "Start Position"

[DonovanM]

what is defined as the start position? if there are XX's and not a box, how far away do you have to be to be considered "away?" most folks make ready then get into the start position. Having a box makes it easy, but XX's and marks make this very vague.

The Start Position is defined in the WSB and I can not quote the exact rule, but the competitor can not move more then one step away from the "Start Position"

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's a set amount of steps that a shooter can take away from the shooting box before asking the RO. In my RO class I heard no more than two was a safe bet. But I could be wrong, it's been a little while.

[jdphotoguy]

what is defined as the start position? if there are XX's and not a box, how far away do you have to be to be considered "away?" most folks make ready then get into the start position. Having a box makes it easy, but XX's and marks make this very vague.

The Start Position is defined in the WSB and I can not quote the exact rule, but the competitor can not move more then one step away from the "Start Position"

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's a set amount of steps that a shooter can take away from the shooting box before asking the RO. In my RO class I heard no more than two was a safe bet. But I could be wrong, it's been a little while.

Just finished the class this morning and our RM instructor said not more then one step, but I can't find it in the rules.

Edited April 29, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[Sarge]

what is defined as the start position? if there are XX's and not a box, how far away do you have to be to be considered "away?" most folks make ready then get into the start position. Having a box makes it easy, but XX's and marks make this very vague.

The Start Position is defined in the WSB and I can not quote the exact rule, but the competitor can not move more then one step away from the "Start Position"

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's a set amount of steps that a shooter can take away from the shooting box before asking the RO. In my RO class I heard no more than two was a safe bet. But I could be wrong, it's been a little while.

Just finished the class this morning and our RM instructor said not more then one step, but I can't find it in the rules.

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance

of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the

direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

You just finished the RO course today and couldn't find that simple rule?

I have never heard of an official "how many steps" a shooter can take from the start location. I tend to let shooters make kind of a false start as long as it's not more than one big step. But I do not let shooters wander off after make ready.

Also, it is the start "location" not the start "position". They are two different things entirely.

[jdphotoguy]

what is defined as the start position? if there are XX's and not a box, how far away do you have to be to be considered "away?" most folks make ready then get into the start position. Having a box makes it easy, but XX's and marks make this very vague.

The Start Position is defined in the WSB and I can not quote the exact rule, but the competitor can not move more then one step away from the "Start Position"

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's a set amount of steps that a shooter can take away from the shooting box before asking the RO. In my RO class I heard no more than two was a safe bet. But I could be wrong, it's been a little while.

Just finished the class this morning and our RM instructor said not more then one step, but I can't find it in the rules.

8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance

of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the

direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

You just finished the RO course today and couldn't find that simple rule?

I have never heard of an official "how many steps" a shooter can take from the start location. I tend to let shooters make kind of a false start as long as it's not more than one big step. But I do not let shooters wander off after make ready.

Also, it is the start "location" not the start "position". They are two different things entirely.

I knew about rule 8.3.1.1, actually quoted it in an earlier post

Rule 8.3.1.1 states the shooter after issued the "Make Ready" command must not move away from the start position prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without prior approval and under that direct supervision, of the RO.

but I could not find a rule on what constitutes "move away" from start location. Is it one step, one foot, two feet....

Yes, you are right I used the wrong wording, it is "Start Location" not "Start Position".

Edited April 29, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[spanky]

I wouldn't.

[Sarge]

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

Are we 100% sure this is a stand alone rule? Or is it just a general restating of the fact than you can be DQ'd for violating any of the rules that are already covered by more specific DQ clauses?

I think this rule leaves the door wide open for an RO to DQ somebody for what he thinks is unsafe as opposed to what the rules define as unsafe. Virtually every unsafe act we could possibly commit is covered by a rule already.

I would have stopped the shooter and told him to get back to the start location and figure out another way to take care of whatever it was he was taking care of. Once this RO allowed him to leave without saying anything he became an accessory to the crime.

No DQ.

[twodownzero]

I would probably not DQ the shooter, but I would probably say something after the course. Possible DQs could be 10.5, in that unsafe gun handling is not limited to the list, having a loaded firearm outside of the direction of the range officer, and/or under 10.6 for not following directions of the range officer. Either way, what happened there is not really a big deal and I would not DQ.

[Sarge]

but I could not find a rule on what constitutes "move away" from start location. Is it one step, one foot, two feet....

It's simple. There isn't one.

[jdphotoguy]

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

Are we 100% sure this is a stand alone rule? Or is it just a general restating of the fact than you can be DQ'd for violating any of the rules that are already covered by more specific DQ clauses?

I think this rule leaves the door wide open for an RO to DQ somebody for what he thinks is unsafe as opposed to what the rules define as unsafe. Virtually every unsafe act we could possibly commit is covered by a rule already.

I would have stopped the shooter and told him to get back to the start location and figure out another way to take care of whatever it was he was taking care of. Once this RO allowed him to leave without saying anything he became an accessory to the crime.

No DQ.

10.3.1 is not a rule, it's a General Regulation.

[jdphotoguy]

but I could not find a rule on what constitutes "move away" from start location. Is it one step, one foot, two feet....

It's simple. There isn't one.

Then that leads to inconsistencies on what constitutes "away", it should be spelled out and not vague.

[jdphotoguy]

OK, I'm done, enough rules and regulations for one day. BTW, I would not have DQ'd him, but I think the option to DQ him was there, would it stick in arbitration, probably not.