The Antichrome Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I tried to use the search function first;-) Search doesnt like it when you just use a rule number...and it balked at the use of the term 'color' 4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets... My question: If a scoring target (in this case, a white popper or plate) has a white No-shoot directly behind it...should the target be a different color? We see white plates in front of white No-shoots often and sometimes its confoundingly difficult to see the target distinctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 We see white plates in front of white No-shoots often and sometimes its confoundingly difficult to see the target distinctly. I think that may be the point. There was a discussion on here recently about no shoot colors. I think you can paint them any color you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 We see white plates in front of white No-shoots often and sometimes its confoundingly difficult to see the target distinctly. I think that may be the point. There was a discussion on here recently about no shoot colors. I think you can paint them any color you want. I'm sure that's exactly the point...but the wording of 4.1.3 would indicate that it's not legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 A big white piece of cardboard doesn't qualify as "clearly marked?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 A big white piece of cardboard doesn't qualify as "clearly marked?" Not when the scoring target is the same color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 We see white plates in front of white No-shoots often and sometimes its confoundingly difficult to see the target distinctly. I think that may be the point. There was a discussion on here recently about no shoot colors. I think you can paint them any color you want. I'm sure that's exactly the point...but the wording of 4.1.3 would indicate that it's not legal. I got ya' now. I did not read it that way before, sorry. At first glance it does indeed seem against that specific rule and in the case of metal scoring targets. There must be a way around it because it is done everywhere. You are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 A big white piece of cardboard doesn't qualify as "clearly marked?" Not when the scoring target is the same color. Sure it does..... Clearly marked -- we know what a paper no-shoot looks like or a different color..... If it were a steel no-shoot in the shape of a paper target, I'd buy into that argument a lot more..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Clearly marked -- we know what a paper no-shoot looks like If it were a steel no-shoot in the shape of a paper target, I'd buy into that argument a lot more..... This is exactly why I asked. Does the fact that it is a No-shoot mean that it is "clearly marked" even though it isnt marked? Why is it any different if its a steel No-shoot? Its the same visual presentation. (Oh, and I thought I had posted this in rules, sorry. Thanks for moving it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I don't think the shape of the target would meet the definition of "Marked". An untouched no-shoot is un-marked. I think the popper needs to either be a different color of maybe a big X through the NS. Personally I vote for a different color popper. Disclaimer: Due to vision.... challenges it is almost, and sometimes, completely impossible for me to see a white popper in front of a NS. I really hate having to deal with that. I am not advocating for a "Rick rule" but I imagine it plays into my interpretation of the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think 4.1.3 is there to keep people from putting faces on targets, and requiring you to figure out which ones are shoot vs. no shoot based on the faces, or some other similar non-sense. Brown paper = scoring target. White paper = penalty target. White steel = scoring target. I understand that it might be a difficult presentation visually, but I think it is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Clearly marked -- we know what a paper no-shoot looks like If it were a steel no-shoot in the shape of a paper target, I'd buy into that argument a lot more..... This is exactly why I asked. Does the fact that it is a No-shoot mean that it is "clearly marked" even though it isnt marked? Why is it any different if its a steel No-shoot? Its the same visual presentation. (Oh, and I thought I had posted this in rules, sorry. Thanks for moving it) The texture of steel and paper is different, as is generally the attachment system of the target.... You ain't hanging a steel no-shoot on a couple of furring strips.... Ultimately, it's really a genuine issue only if the stage has target poppers and no-shoot poppers, for instance -- that's really where target confusion could come into play.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Brown paper = Scoring target White paper = No Shoot target White popper = Scoring target Black popper = Whatever we want it to be via WSB. White Plate = Scoring Target Black Plate = Whatever we want it to be via WSB. Why shouldn’t all white targets, popper, plates be no-shoots...And any other color for scoring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 ...and sometimes its confoundingly difficult to see the target distinctly. This is probably a shooting issue. (It was for me, until I figured it out...one of my favorite lessons.) For me, it was a big white wall... I had transitioned in on the target while still focusing on my front sight. Thus, I never really located the target precisely. So, the target got kinda washed out in the white background. This is how I found out that I had focusing on the front sight when I shouldn't have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 most people dont have a problem seeing the difference between a white no shoot paper target and a white steel plate or popper. So that is meeting the definition of clearly marked even though a few people have problems seeing it. The rule does say clearly marked OR different color, so for white/white to be legal we must be using "clearly". Leads me to wonder, what if we had a bunch of targets with blue or green and had one of those flip a card over shoot the targets with the color that matches your card , the other color ia noshoots. (personally I feel like those should be illegal stages) Now most people can tell the difference between blue and green , but quite a few cant. So would that meet the "clearly marked requirement ? At what percentage of shooters does something cross from clearly to not clearly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Brown paper = Scoring target White paper = No Shoot target White popper = Scoring target Black popper = Whatever we want it to be via WSB. White Plate = Scoring Target Black Plate = Whatever we want it to be via WSB. Why shouldn't all white targets, popper, plates be no-shoots...And any other color for scoring? I've wondered this too. Seems to make sense (to me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 There is nothing in the rulebook requiring you to paint your steel white. 4.1.2.2 recommends white, but doesn't require it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think the question is simply if an object that is a different shape meets the definition of "clearly marked". I don't think it does. If we were to put a larger square piece of brown target which we designated as a NS behind, say a head shot only target that would then have to be legal, assuming all other NSs were the same color. Note to Stage Designers. If this is actually legal it is an evil thought and one that should only be considered at matches old blind guys don't attend. Or at a minimum this old blind guy. Seriously though, I don't think a different shape object meets the definition of marked. It may well look very different, but marked means literally "to have a mark placed upon it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 most people dont have a problem seeing the difference between a white no shoot paper target and a white steel plate or popper. So that is meeting the definition of clearly marked even though a few people have problems seeing it. The rule does say clearly marked OR different color, so for white/white to be legal we must be using "clearly". To add confusion to this, in the rulebook, the word "OR" can sometimes mean "AND". (See DNROI's clarification in last year's Front Sight about 5.2.3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 most people dont have a problem seeing the difference between a white no shoot paper target and a white steel plate or popper. So that is meeting the definition of clearly marked even though a few people have problems seeing it. The rule does say clearly marked OR different color, so for white/white to be legal we must be using "clearly". Leads me to wonder, what if we had a bunch of targets with blue or green and had one of those flip a card over shoot the targets with the color that matches your card , the other color ia noshoots. (personally I feel like those should be illegal stages) Now most people can tell the difference between blue and green , but quite a few cant. So would that meet the "clearly marked requirement ? At what percentage of shooters does something cross from clearly to not clearly ? I think the use of multiple different colored because it is an unfair disadvantage to color blind people. Why do you think all traffic lights in the US have red on top, yellow in the middle and green on the bottom? This maybe a case of someone reading too much into a rule since 4.1.2.1 says "The scoring area of scoring paper targets must be a typical cardboard color". 4.1.2.2 The entire front of scoring metal targets must be painted a single color, perferably white. I guess the point of debate might be mhat is meant by perfered but I think most people know. 4.1.3 "No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets" There are classifers that use no-shoots behind poppers and I do not recall other complaints. I would say MAN UP but I might make a female shooter angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I am almost completely color blind. When the guys out here paint the poppers blue I about pee my kilt because I can actually see the contrast against our desert brown backdrop (and white NSs). LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) email reply to this question from dnroi: Clearly marked should be an X in black Edited March 25, 2012 by The Antichrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Based on a response I read elsewhere an email from John is like a personal conversation, doesn't mean anything until it shows up in Front Sight or on the USPSA website under rulings. Maybe that is why there is a gag order about RMI's adding comments in the rules section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Are the steel targets really the same color of white as the no-shoots? IF they are sahde different they are a different color... As I read that rule I must admit that it would appear to be improper to place a white no shoot behind a white steel popper. In fact, per the rule, if you have a white popper anywhere who should not have a white no-shot which is not clearly marked. I say you paint all the steel RED so as to clearly differentiate it from the white no-shoots and the tan/brown shoot targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 email reply to this question from dnroi: Clearly marked should be an X in black is he saying no-shoots with red or green or purple x's or other types of symbols are not legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Pledger Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I normally use white for all shoot steel, and either black or red for noshoot steel. In the case where a Noshoot target is used behind a popper or plate, it is clearly marked with a X. Cheers .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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