Protesting a NS hit

[aztecdriver]

... I saw you shoot it.

At a recent major... I was dinged for a NS that was left unpasted from the previous shooter. I knew where my engagement on that target was and planned it in order to be wide open. It was a PERFECT 2 Alpha "snake eye" group in the middle of the target. There was a Noshoot on the wall up range of the target to the left side of the target, forcing you to either move right or risk dinging the target. I planned it to be engaged in my last position, which would have left it wide open with room to spare.

There was an edge hit on the noshoot, that got called, and which I protested - knowing exactly where I engaged the target from -- and the hits on the target, it was impossible that hit was mine. They looked at it, and the clipboard guy said "I saw you shoot it." To which I said "How?" - they proceeded to ignore me - and I realized that my option was to call the RM at that point, or eat the no shoot. I was already out of the contention to place in class, so I left it - especially when I realized that the statement from the RO was going to leave me hanging with no other evidence.

So, I had video'd the entire match, both with a handheld camera with someone shooting it and my Eyecord glasses - And, sure enough, there is no way I dinged the target.

Should I have gone a head and appealed the call? Do I now need to inspect the entire range before every run? Or is this just a bad portion of what we need to deal with as part of the game...

[GrumpyOne]

I would have had him check the timer for the extra shot. If you had two alphas, and only two shots on that array, then there was no way you hit the NS. And if you did, it would have to have been a shoot through, and therefore a re-shoot.

[wide45]

I would have had him check the timer for the extra shot. If you had two alphas, and only two shots on that array, then there was no way you hit the NS. And if you did, it would have to have been a shoot through, and therefore a re-shoot.

Read the original post a little better.

...There was an edge hit on the noshoot...

[GrumpyOne]

I would have had him check the timer for the extra shot. If you had two alphas, and only two shots on that array, then there was no way you hit the NS. And if you did, it would have to have been a shoot through, and therefore a re-shoot.

Read the original post a little better.

...There was an edge hit on the noshoot...

Yep, the uprange thing.....my bad...

Magic bullet?

[wide45]

...Do I now need to inspect the entire range before every run? Or is this just a bad portion of what we need to deal with as part of the game...

Yes. Those are your choices.

[GrumpyOne]

Call the RM . See what he says....

[XRe]

First off, always double check stage reset. It sucks that you have to be defensive like that, but it is what it is...

Call the RM. If you feel you can (politely!) make a case that you couldn't have fired the shot in question (for instance, the no-shoot was uprange from where you engaged the targets in question), you will probably prevail. It's your right as a shooter to call for the RM. If you're not sure about where you shot it, or there's a decent possibility you own the hit, I wouldn't bother with the RM, personally. But, if you're certain that it's not your hit on the no-shoot, or that you have a second hit on the scoring target, or whatever, call the RM (did I mention, be polite?)

[Sarge]

I would have had him check the timer for the extra shot. If you had two alphas, and only two shots on that array, then there was no way you hit the NS. And if you did, it would have to have been a shoot through, and therefore a re-shoot.

Reshoots for shoot thrus only apply to steel.

[remoandiris]

the clipboard guy said "I saw you shoot it." To which I said "How?" - they proceeded to ignore me - and I realized that my option was to call the RM at that point, or eat the no shoot. I was already out of the contention to place in class, so I left it - especially when I realized that the statement from the RO was going to leave me hanging with no other evidence.

IMO, ALWAYS call the RM. Yes, if the scorekeeper was to stick with his/her story that s/he saw you shoot it, you would lose. But when they ignore your request to explain HOW they saw it, that would be reason enough for me to challenge them. Regardless of you being out of contention, you should always call the RM if you have an issue with the officiating.

As for reviewing the shot timer, we all know or should know the timers don't always pick up every shot. The only shot the timer REALLY needs to pick up is the last shot.

[Rob Boudrie]

The word of the RM is final on a scoring call.

If the RO disagrees, don't argue - ask for a review by the RM, make you case, and accept whatever decision is rendered with class even if you disagree with it.

[rupie]

But on a side note a RO should never say he saw the hit unless he is positive he saw the hole appear, I have seen no shoots hit and would say that if the shooter said he did not hit it, but the fact that he said he saw it and your sure you did not hit it is troubling.

[Pat Miles]

But on a side note a RO should never say he saw the hit unless he is positive he saw the hole appear, I have seen no shoots hit and would say that if the shooter said he did not hit it, but the fact that he said he saw it and your sure you did not hit it is troubling.

IF the RO does his job correctly he should NEVER tell a shooter he saw the hit.. His only job from "make ready" until "the range is clear" is the gun and the shooters trigger finger.

Pat

[furyalecto]

But on a side note a RO should never say he saw the hit unless he is positive he saw the hole appear, I have seen no shoots hit and would say that if the shooter said he did not hit it, but the fact that he said he saw it and your sure you did not hit it is troubling.

IF the RO does his job correctly he should NEVER tell a shooter he saw the hit.. His only job from "make ready" until "the range is clear" is the gun and the shooters trigger finger.

Pat

Didn't he say clipboard RO (not RO running shooter?)

[Pat Miles]

But on a side note a RO should never say he saw the hit unless he is positive he saw the hole appear, I have seen no shoots hit and would say that if the shooter said he did not hit it, but the fact that he said he saw it and your sure you did not hit it is troubling.

IF the RO does his job correctly he should NEVER tell a shooter he saw the hit.. His only job from "make ready" until "the range is clear" is the gun and the shooters trigger finger.

Pat

Didn't he say clipboard RO (not RO running shooter?)

If I'm reading Rupie's quote correctly, he said RO. The OP quoted the RO with the clip board, who should NOT be looking for hits either. He has a job to do and it isn't looking for hits.

Pat

Edited February 25, 2012 by Pat Miles

[Joe4d]

it was the score keeping RO, quite common at a major to have one RO overall in charge and watching the gun and the second RO to be specifically watching out of penalties and foot faults.

Not 100% but either in RO training or in the book it was stated not to use the shot timer number of shots to prove anything. Just like we arnt allowed to use video evidence.

SOmeone is mistaken, The score RO could have come around a corner and the light hit the whole in the Noshoot just as you fired making it look like it was you, or you coulda been mistaken,

As an RO I wouldnt have argued the point. If I saw the whole I would call out the score, if you said it wasnt you and the score keeper said he saw you do it I would score the miss. No heartburn on me if you want to apeal, thats why we have rules.

I have told a shooter to appeal a call I made that I believe was wrong. I wasnt sure of the appeal procedure. I called a foot fault, after the next shooter came up the shooter came to me with a camera and said he had it on video that he got his foot back up before he broke the shot. I believed him. BUt by rule I cant look at or use video evidence. I said he should call the RM, but without any input from me, the Scorekeeping RO who's specific task on that stage was to score penalties said he also saw the foot fault penalty, So the penalty stood. MAybe we got it wrong, maybe the sound/ video was out of sync, I never looked at it.

The thing to remember, we are human officials, No umpire will ever call every strike, every ball, or every play at the plate perfect. Do you feel there was any specific bias towards you ? Those officials did the best they could to score each and every shooter as best they could. SOmewhere down the line there will probably be a foot fault or nick on a NS that u get away with.

[rupie]

But on a side note a RO should never say he saw the hit unless he is positive he saw the hole appear, I have seen no shoots hit and would say that if the shooter said he did not hit it, but the fact that he said he saw it and your sure you did not hit it is troubling.

IF the RO does his job correctly he should NEVER tell a shooter he saw the hit.. His only job from "make ready" until "the range is clear" is the gun and the shooters trigger finger.

Pat

Didn't he say clipboard RO (not RO running shooter?)

I should have been clear in my statement, as a scoring RO I have seen NS hits. As a RO running the guy I'm just watching the gun.

[Dave Campbell]

Always protest to the RM if you think you are right. Be polite . The hole is there. so it has to be scored.( since the course was not checked before you went thru it) Use the rules. I did not do it, will not work.

I would make an attempt to use 9.1.4. Make it a questionable call, hole dia, # of shots fired, use what you have and if you can make your case for the rule you quote. You can win.

Ask for the RM , WAIT TO BE ASKED by the RM your side. Do not climb all over him when he gets there, as he will probably ask the RO first what is going on.

Do what you can to support your case , make the call a questionable call , present all of your facts in such away that it is impossible to determine an accurate score. You then get a reshoot. Best outcome for this case.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Dave Campbell

[lcs]

I would have to ask the RO "Are you sure beyond any doubt that edge hit was not missed from a previous shooter ?". If the RO staff verify that noshoot was not there before your run you buy the noshoot. Calling the RM is probably not going to help. Edge hits are easily overlooked when taping and scoring if the noshoot is not in the immediate vicinity of a scoring target.

[Nik Habicht]

It brings up an important point of stage management -- which is more easily accomplished at major matches, than it is at local matches with embedded (and frequently changing) ROs. At majors, break the stage down into sections among the ROs working the stage. Each RO is responsible for checking that all targets have been pasted, steel and movers have been reset, and steel has gotten painted, and that no competitors remain behind as they clear the range....

[High Lord Gomer]

At A6 a couple of years ago we had a complicated stage that had many people skipping a target that could only be engage from one position. Since we had 3 ROs working the stage we had one that would keep an eye out for that target (and a few others) that were frequently skipped.

[sperman]

Call the RM . See what he says....

I heard a story about a major a couple of years ago where the shooter asked for the RM and the CRO refused. What do you do then?

[XRe]

I heard a story about a major a couple of years ago where the shooter asked for the RM and the CRO refused. What do you do then?

This was over a scoring issue? If it was true, and the CRO refuses to call the RM and has the stage reset, you're assured a reshoot. You just have to wander over to the next stage, and ask them to call the RM. Then, when the RM shows up, politely and calmly explain your situation - since there's now no score to show the RM (because a target wasn't pulled and the stage was reset, due to inappropriate action by the CRO), there's no other action to take, whether you were right or wrong in your scoring challenge. And, the RM should probably be having a chat with the CRO (and possibly relieving him/her of their position...)

[Skydiver]

Call the RM . See what he says....

I heard a story about a major a couple of years ago where the shooter asked for the RM and the CRO refused. What do you do then?

The rule book says, the shooter can appeal to the RM:

9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penalty and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling.

The only exception the quickly come to mind is in the case of a prematurely patched target (9.1.3).

[As an aside, I think that a popper that has been interfered with by a non-Match Official (Appendix C1.6.c) although not explicitly excluded from appeal, is effectively excluded because the CRO/RM should ask the questions: "Was the popper interfered with?" and "Who interfered with the popper?"]

[Skydiver]

Call the RM . See what he says....

I heard a story about a major a couple of years ago where the shooter asked for the RM and the CRO refused. What do you do then?

Another alternative is to not sign the scoresheet. That will effectively call in the RM into the picture as well:

9.7.3 Should a competitor refuse to sign or initial a score sheet, for any reason, the matter must be referred to the Range Master. If the Range Master is satisfied that the course of fire has been conducted and scored correctly the unsigned score sheet will be submitted as normal for inclusion in the match scores.

[Gary Stevens]

Call the RM . See what he says....

I heard a story about a major a couple of years ago where the shooter asked for the RM and the CRO refused. What do you do then?

I think a shooter should always have a right to call for the RM. Sometimes just having a person to talk to, that is not directly involved in the situation, can help settle the dust. Call it "Range Therapy"

Edited February 27, 2012 by Gary Stevens