Car shopping

[Vlad]

I really hate car shopping. It seems that this one of the last bastions of the trully crooked salesman.

I had to buy a new car for my wife on tight schedule, but we did do out research about the SUVs she liked and about the rebates and special offers. Sat in the cars, drove them, made a decission. We even had a pleasent salesman. All was good until "the finance guy" start to play games with me. He tried to sneak in the window etching crap without asking and then got snotty when I told him no, and had to re do the paper work. That and he tried to sneak by us a rebate signed over to them, for about $1000, without mentioning it.

I let him have the rebate. It was one of those "competitive vehicle" rebates where if you trade in a car of the same class you get an extra rebate. He thought that our trade in would work and sliped it in. We called the company ahead of time and knew it wouldnt. So he is going to end up with $1000 less then he thought he has making but I was not compeled to let him now after he tried to screw me.

I hate that "business". No other that I know of considers this to be normal behaviour on the part of the "salesmen". I know there are some decent folks in it, and have delt with some of them in the past. But it seems that most are crooks.

Comments welcomed

Vlad

[Guest Larry Cazes]

I used to feel like you, but for our last 2 purchases I kinda like it now. There are lots of websites with great info on invoice dealer pricing so that you now can easily find out what the dealer pays. If you go in and let them know what you are willing to pay and then don't back down, you can get good deals. Our last purchase was a Mazda and we told them our price and the salesman put on a big show about not being able to sell it for our offer. We walked out after giving them our phone number and within 12 hours they called us to accept our original number. Our willingness to walk away from the deal, put us into a different category from most buyers. They treated me with respect after that and didn't bother trying to finance me further. As soon as you back down from a confrontation over price or terms, the salesman has the upper hand.

[Rob Boudrie]

I hate that "business". No other that I know of considers this to be normal behaviour on the part of the "salesmen". I know there are some decent folks in it, and have delt with some of them in the past. But it seems that most are crooks.

Comments welcomed

Vlad

Try higher education.

No other business is allowed to say "we need to see your finances so we can set a special price just for you. If you have assets sufficiet to pay full price, you're going to pay full retail at this or any other vendor."

Or say "we coordinate with other vendors to make sure our discounts to an individual customer are identical so we do not compete on the discount package"

Or how about "we already sell enough cars to people from your demographic, so we'll charge you full retail to preserve the discount for the kind of customer we are targeting"

Compared to secondary education, car dealerships are choir boys.

[warpspeed]

I used to feel this way til I discovered edmunds.com. Knowledge is power

[Vince Pinto]

It's a weird business, even on this side of the Big Pond.

If you go to an authorised dealer to buy a new car (say without a trade-in), there's a fixed, "not a penny less", carved in a stone tablet sticker price. However if you deal through a "broker", he can get you a price at least 5% lower and he makes 5% on the deal and he generally offers you something extra like "go faster" stripes or a celluar phone holder with handsfree for free. Go figure.

Of course it goes without saying that most of us buy through brokers.

Don't know about the US, but here we also have (legal) parallel imports which usually have more options thrown in but with a lower sticker price - the only difference being you get a 1 year warranty compared to 3 years from the official importer.

[Al Capizzo]

In my neighborhood the favorite ploy is "how much do you want your payments to be?" It is a struggle to get salespeople to actually discuss the price of the vehicle, its all about, "hey we're only $20 a month over what you wanted to spend. Thats pretty close, you can do $20 more a month."

Oh sure, and only for seven years?! Wow, where do I sign !! Oh yeah and "the lender requires you to buy the extended warranty".

Must be a good idea then!

And this being the bible belt, all the salepeople like to tell you where they go to church and how "active" they are. And I believe them.

Al

[Vlad]

Oh I know all the tricks, and I know about Edmunds, and I even played the reverse monthly payment game where I do tell them what I want my payment to be but I give them a number so low that the only way they can make a profit is to add $20 per month. This is the fourth car my wife and I have bought and I know I got a pretty good deal, and a much better one then the dealer even realized. I just hate playing this game.

Vlad

PS: heh .. I just noticed I got "free" window etching. They did it without asking, and tried to charge me, but when I told them no way, they took it of the bill. The winodws are etched though.

[SiG Lady]

I simply went in and played cash hardball with my local Nissan dealer in 1998. I needed a new base model Sentra in black (...they had one...) and had "X" number of dollars and told them that's what I had. Period. Much lower than the list and lower than their current sticker price. This included trade-in of my decent, older, very-low-mileage Sentra. They salivated at the cash offer and accepted it even though a low offer. But they wanted me to write a check for it that very day. I had an out-of-state electronic funds transfer in the works and wasn't about to write a bad check and told them so. Told 'em I'd be back the following morning to do the thing so would they please just keep their pants on. Boy, were they in a hurry the next day, though... I didn't even have time to take the old Sentra home and unload my stuff from it. They in fact helped me hustle all my 'stuff' into the new one (13 yrs worth of stuff) and we did a little paperwork, and that was that. New car--cheap. No dickering, no sleasy weaseling or conning. They either wanted my money or they didn't.

[jhgtyre]

But they wanted me to write a check for it that very day. I had an out-of-state electronic funds transfer in the works and wasn't about to write a bad check and told them so. Told 'em I'd be back the following morning to do the thing so would they please just keep their pants on. Boy, were they in a hurry the next day, though...

I've never sold cars but I have sold lots of other stuff and I can tell you that salesmen generally don't like it when the sale walks out the door and promises to come back. From a buyers perspective it is a powerful move though and one that can and should be used when necessary. I am just happy I don't sell stuff anymore. It is very lucrative but tremendously stressful.

-ld

[Tupperware]

Vlad,

I feel your pain, man, although I don't think there are any more crooked salesmen in car sales than there are in any other segment of commissioned sales. It can be a very lucrative business where one can achieve sucess in a relatively short period of time, with little training. The problem stems from the fact that almost every person involved in your transaction derives their income from the "extras" that they bundle into it. There usually are only one or two people who really understand the deal, and the buyer is rarely one of them. A few of the comments in this thread illustrate this fact.

[shred]

My favorite answer to "it's only $5 more a month, you probably spend more than that on lunch" is "I bet it's a lot more to me than it is to the largest dealer in the state"

My last car-buying trip took 6 hours. And 5.5 of them were spent by me playing solitaire on my PDA (with a copy of all the Edmunds data, naturally). Evenatually they got hungry and caved, although they did try and play the "we can't find your car keys" trick with my old cars' keys. In the spirit of the thread, I hate that.

[MoNsTeR]

The windows are all already etched. If you don't pay the upcharge they don't register them.

(ICBW, tho.)

[old shooter]

After I retired from my first career, I worked a number of different job for the next few years. One of them was selling cars. Man, I was in for an awaking. It wasn't what I thought. The highest profit potential from a car sale is in the finance office. They are the ones that make the mone for the dealer. One thing I remember being told was "you get more car negotiating practice in one week than most poeple get in their life". I only spent 1 year, and it was rough. I was at a dealer that insisted on professional dealings from the salesmen and trained them very well. I would suggest:

1. Get your information from the internet before you go.

2. Negotiate you new car price without your trade in.

3. Never discuss monthly payments.

4. You can almost always get better financing at a credit union or bank

5. Time is money---for you--If you spend an extra 5 hours in the dealership and get an additional 1000 off the price, thats a pretty good hourly wage.

6.Be friendly with the salesman, they can really help you, or be rude to them, and they will surly try to screw you.

7. Don't be afraid to ask for a different salesman. That really gets peoples attention.

And remember, you really can walk out, at any time up to and including after you visited the finance room.

Mike

[sfinney]

Just some observations from the factory side of the business:

Alot of dealers would rather finance than do a straight cash deal.... if they can finance you, they make more money. I've seen some dealers charge MORE for a cash deal on occasion. Of course, if they KNOW you are going to use your Credit Union, not them, then the sales price is probably the same as cash or whatever. All things being equal (rates, terms, etc) , consider financing through the dealer and letting him make money "on the back end" - if you can get a better price on the front end.

Also, sometimes the Dealer offered financing is cheaper than even Credit Unions, if there is an incentivized rate being offered.... 0, 1.9, 2.9 % etc...... if you qualify.

But a better deal is usually to take the manufacturer cash incentives instead, PLUS get your lowest Credit Union rate (manufacturers usually offer cash or rate, not both).

And dealers will usually make a better deal for you, if you don't have a trade - a trade is just more of the dealers money tied up for longer, they have to sell your trade to get their money back (of course, a really attractive trade they can make some money on will work in your favor, if you know what you have, and negotitate well).

And guess what, you really CAN get a better deal on the last day of the month, last day of the year, or on really nasty rainy days, at the right dealership - if the pressure is on to make up ground, they'll practically give em away sometimes, especially if there is a volume bonus the dealer is trying to hit.

[L9X25]

I gathered all of the information available on the internet (including Edmunds) and started faxing info to several fleet sales guys (buying through my business). I was totally surprised when one of them offered me a deal that was several hundred dollars better than the lowest price my calculations indicated was possible (below invoice including all applicable rebates and incentives). I was puzzled and accepted the offer and prepared for battle in the finance office.

It turns out that the manufacturer had a "no-charge leather" temporary/regional discount that DID NOT show up on any of the car sites. None of the vehicles at the dealership had the discount on the sticker either. It seems that the dealer found the exact vehicle I wanted at a dealer in another area had it trucked in for me.

After we finished the paperwork the Finance guy handed me the window sticker along with all of the books, documents and spare keys and I saw the discount there. They ended up making a few $ when I thought that they had lost a few bucks. I realize that they have their holdback but this deal cut away the majority of the holdback. as it turns out, they actually made the entire holdback.

Even when you think that you have gotten it all ... there IS always more available!

Leo

[EricW]

It's not an accident that I still driving a 10 year old car that I bought new. I plan on driving it until it disintegrates, not only because I'm a cheap SOB, but because I hate the car buying "experience."

I plan to "experience" it as little as possible in this life.

[kimel]

The last time I bought a new car the wife was with me and was unaware of my plan. She caved real early and probably cost us at least $1K. I hated myself for not telling her "the plan".

My dad taught me how to deal with these folks. His biggest lever is to get up and leave and tell the sales dude "well, I am going to go check a few other dealers and then maybe I'll be back".

He also taught me the "go car shopping in bad weather and toward the end of the month" trick. I bought my last new car on a February 24th in the middle of a snow storm that ended up lasting four days. Sales dude was very hungry and it was clear as a bell to me, but not to the wife. Dude knocked $2K off before my butt had hit the chair and wife said "sold".

I realize that this is a hate thread but will someone explain "etched windows" and registration of them to me? Getting ready to buy a new truck and haven't a clue about what this is.

[sfinney]

In the never ending effort to make more money "on the back end" (other than price of car; financing, insurance, extended warranties, GAP insurance, Interior protection plans, etc.) they came up with VIN window etching.

For a nominal fee, the dealer uses a kit (usually acid etching) to put your VIN number in all the Glass windows of a vehicle.

Theory being that thieves are less likely to steal a car with VIN etched windows, as they would have to replace all the windows before car could be "re-VINed" and resold, or if "chopped" couldn't sell the glass, a lower profit deal for them. Some insurance companies give a small discount for this feature, so it might actually be worth having - ifthe price is right.

Most dealers are charging between $250 and $500 for this procedure that usually costs them about $30 or less. Pure profit. (some services also "register" the VIN in a database, and if your car is stolen and not recovered, you'll get a small amount from the VIN etching people, usually enough to cover a deductible)

[shred]

The latest scam is they etch a 'control' number in the windows. If you pay the bill, they enter your VIN next to the control number in a database that glass-dealers and cops are supposed to check. No $, no register.

[L9X25]

Shred is right ... my vehicle had a serial number (not the VIN) etched into the glass. I did not pay to register so they cannot cross reference my serial number if stolen. The car thieves won't know if I registered or not so the deterrence (if any) should still be intact.

Leo

[SiG Lady]

I strategically bought my car in mid-to-late September, just before the new models really arrived in droves, and two weeks before this particular dealer was about to change owners. These conditions produced both a lull in sales and a period of nervous unease in the staff. I caught 'em at a slightly vulnerable and distracted time. I had already gone in and scoped out the available current-year models several weeks earlier...... heh-heh.

[EricW]

If anyone is feeling really devious, do what I did:

Chisel the dealer down on price using their own "what do you want to pay per month?" model. The outrageous interest charges will automatically cut the cash price of the car. As soon as you leave the dealership, go to your credit union and re-finance the car at a much lower interest rate. Then you have the best of both worlds: low interest and low principal.

[davidwiz]

I had to get a car last November after my old was got crashed into. I test drove a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII and the salesman (some kid who looked like he just graduated from high school) didn't know jack about the car. All he could talk about was "do you want to buy it now" and was using a very hard sell, etc. Nice car, but no way was I going to deal with that dealership and they were the closest Mitsu dealer around.

The same company that owned the Mitsu dealership owned a Subaru dealership next store, so I test drove a Subaru WRX STi. Totally different experience than with the Mitsu salesman. Very low key, soft sell. Same experience at the Audi, BMW and Mercedes dealerships. The Merc salesman even sent me a follow-up letter that day.

I guess it boils down to the dealership and how they train their salesmen. I stay away from the dealerships that advertise in a "loud" way on the radio, because they are usually just trying to %^ you over.

[BrianH]

It seems that this one of the last bastions of the trully crooked salesman. 

I hate that "business".  No other that I know of considers this to be normal behaviour on the part of the "salesmen". I know there are some decent folks in it, and have delt with some of them in the past. But it seems that most are crooks.

It gets worse.....Mfg. Home salesmen.

Take your worst car salesman, multiply his "potential" commission by five, then give him a bonus for screwing you into a suicidal loan. I've watched too many decent people file for bankruptcy in the last 5 years over these nice people....

[SiG Lady]

..."suicidal loan"...

Intriguing combination of words. Well done!

I can just see the visual on this, though... A demonic sleezbag hovering over a pair of meek and quivering buyers, pen in hand.....