JCT Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hi all, I currently shoot 9mm and would like to get better and I'm seeing the writing on the wall re reloading . Not to mention the fact that my next firearm will likely be a .45 ACP and I can only imagine my husband's reaction to THOSE ammo bills. I'm going to start slow as I learn -- likely with the basic Lee Classic Turret for 9mm, but I am going to get the best accessories possible. If my better half takes to shooting like I have (he's still back in NYC for awhile while I'm in AZ) and once we have a house, then I can imagine I will invest in a Dillon RL-550B. So I am going back and forth regarding a scale. As far as I can see, I will only be loading pistol (9mm and .45ACP). I would like to buy from Brian because of all of the help I have received here and the chance that I will eventually go up to the 550B. I'm technically pretty adept (research scientist by trade) so the *idea* of a balance (the Eliminator) doesn't trouble me, but could folks weigh in (OK, horrible pun) -- and compare and contrast the two options (Eliminator vs Eno's high end digital) for me given my reloading goals? Much appreciated, JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If you can afford it I would get both-use one to check the accuracy of the 2nd scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 After using a digital scale I can't imagine going back to the stone ages with a balance beam. Also, when you do someday upgrade to a Dillon and start making bigger and bigger lots of ammo you will want to check the powder throw periodically (some do it every hundred rounds and some do it every 500) and the best way to do that is to throw ten on the scale and average them. That would get pretty tiresome real fast with an old school scale IMHO. Some may chime in that you should have both so you can "verify" that the digital is working right but I say Horse Hockey. Digital scales come with check weights or you can use anything of a known weight such as a bullet that you know exactly xxx. I bought and sold a brand new Dillon BB scale once I saw it served no useful purpose for me. I use the Dillon digital and it is very good at what it does. I think Brian sells a few different models besides the Dillon. One of which has a lifetime warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I told you somebody would say that! LOL Vigilante posted while I was typing. Also Welcome to the forums!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCT Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 OK -- that was darn funny you two. In general I have no problem with spending a bit more at the outset. I'm a serious photographer as well, and the classic "how much to spend on a tripod" question is pretty similar. Basically the advice is to just spend the bucks, because you *will* trade up. I think if I spread out the purchases bit, Press kit, then scale/caliper then supplies, this should be a reasonable start! Thanks, JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Since you mentioned Calipers go with digital there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 And, since you know will trade up, don't waste time and money with the Lee...go ahead and get a 550, and you'll be set for a long time, or at least until your other half gets serious into it. I second everything Sarge has said...he's spot on, as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobb Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 You know personally I see no reason the go with digital calipers, especially these $30 dollar varieties that work just fine. I prefer to use an analog caliper and it is no slower than a digital in anyway and IMO more accurate. The cheap digitals I have seen throw that 5 after the .001, and on an analog/dial caliper you can see in more detail exactly where you're at. The digitals don't really get good until you spend a pretty penny on a quality brand, but even still I prefer a solid dial caliper. I don't really see any benefit to the digital caliper. But to each their own. They might be the way to go if you can't read a dial caliper, but it's really not to hard to figure out. I would totally recommend a digital scale, just for ease of use. Just get a quality one and you should be good to go, I believe the one Brian is selling with the lifetime warranty is a good little scale. It never hurts to have a balance beam scale around, but just get a good digi scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerflyer48 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) for the last 20 + years I have used a Beam Scale,.. no problems with power cords breaking , lighting issues ( some don't like fluorescent lights) , electrical interference etc. search the forums or just put a scale next to a PC or TV and watch it for wandering... just a few months ago my Dad called and said he wished he had never given me that old scale since he was about to load a batch for a match and the power cord for his Digital went on the fritz... I say get one of each so you can cross check .. I have 2 beams because 20 years ago you couldn't afford the electronics.. and if it doesn't come with a set 1 set check weights.. John P.S. I have one of each kind of calipers digital and analog. Edited January 28, 2012 by Amerflyer48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregdavidl Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 A beam scale is fine. I've reloaded for years and never felt the need for a digital scale. I have an expensive ($200+) digital caliper that I bought for a job I used to have, but I much prefer my dial caliper for reloading. No batteries being a big plus to me. For pistol ammo, once you get things adjusted and set, there's just not a whole lot of measuring after that. Other than the occasional check of the powder measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okshootist Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I love the speed and convenience of the digital scale, but wouldn't use it without the beam scale for the reasons Amerflyer48 listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 A beam scale is fine. I have an expensive digital caliper but I prefer my dial caliper. For pistol ammo, once you get things adjusted,there's not a lot of measuring after that. +1. If you know how to read beam balance, there is no large advantage to a more expensive caliper or scale, IMHO. Only reason for the scale is to get to a certain velocity - that you measure with a chronograph. If you try to throw 3.5 grains of powder, and your inexpensive scale is throwing 3.4 grains, you'll pick that up in the chrono, anyway. No one can tell you that a certain weight of powder will make your desired velocity in your gun - only way to achieve the desired velocity is to fire 20 rounds thru a chrony. You might need 3.6 grains in your gun. More important to have a chrono than spend extra $100 for calipers and scale. No one can tell you if 1.133" is better than 1.136" in Your Gun - measuring OAL is not critical if it functions properly in your gun - a 0.003" difference is usually not critical, as long as rounds feed properly in your gun and the rounds are accurate and not above pressure limits. IMHO. Again, many people here like to spend $300 for a chrono - I spent $70 for the Chrony, and it does everything I need it to do. If you're going to load only 9mm and .45, two Square Deals might (IMHO) be better than a single 550 or 650. You can leave them both set up without making constant changes to them. But, that's very personal - many people here feel that having 2 1050's is The Only Way to Go:(( And, they are correct, for Them. Up to you. Welcome to the sport - have fun and stay safe. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I have both scales. I use the bb scale the most. Seems easier, doesn't need to warmup and don't need to worry about the lights or where your cell phone is. I find it just as quick, drop the powder slide over to weights and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinj308 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 More important to have a chrono than spend extra $100 for calipers and scale. Again, many people here like to spend $300 for a chrono - I spent $70 for the Chrony, and it does everything I need it to do. Welcome to the sport - have fun and stay safe. Jack That's really good advice. I know you were asking about scales but you have to know what a given charge will do in your gun. An inexpensive chrono will tell you what you need to see on your scale, whatever kind you get. Even if you get a better chrono later, I've got a Oheler as well as access to a cheap one, it's nice to have a spare. Welcome to the forum Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCT Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Well now I know *why* I was puzzled about scales -- lots of real world experience here! At least I wasn't asking an obvious question. I have a colleague who is a Marine reserve officer and he brought up the chrono almost immediately - so that point is well taken. A few folks have suggested the Dillon press from the get-go (vs starting "simply" with the Lee Classic Turret) and in all honesty I have gone back and forth on this endlessly (leaving half-filled shopping carts all over the internet ) I am operating under 3 constraints. (1) Until this summer I am living in an RV (waiting to move into a house) -- so space is a huge consideration. I *could* just wait (and might), but since I am living on my own for now, I have time in the evenings to fill. Seemed a good opportunity to learn with no distractions. I will have to use a B&D workbench as my "bench" -- so the compact Lee Turret seemed a good fit. (2) Price -- just don't have the scratch in-hand for the full "beginners" setup for the RL-550B. And, for example, can't imagine how to setup the strong mount in this limited space. It seems to be highly recommended ... So I figured I would "part up" slowly and then spring for the RL-550B if I need the volume. (3) Now this one is "funny" -- not really, it's annoying. The place where I am living doesn't even allow handguns. I've broken this rule (sorry, I'm living alone), but I may have to forgo some internet purchases (might be a little SUSPICIOUS to have this stuff delivered ). So availability is important -- luckily I live in AZ and go up to the Phoenix area often. Hmmm, as I type this, might be a Dillon advantage. I know, odd circumstances. But I think I can make this work. I've been collecting my brass and will buy a tumbler next week to get the ball rolling. Any and all advice always welcome and appreciated! I'm very glad I found this forum, originally stumbled on it trying to learn about the different shooting competitions! JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Also keep in mind that consistency is just as important as accuracy. If you calibrate your press with all stations empty your measurements will vary with all stations loaded. Do it the same way with the same scale or calipers every time for consistent results with finished product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinj308 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Well now I know *why* I was puzzled about scales -- lots of real world experience here! At least I wasn't asking an obvious question. I have a colleague who is a Marine reserve officer and he brought up the chrono almost immediately - so that point is well taken. A few folks have suggested the Dillon press from the get-go (vs starting "simply" with the Lee Classic Turret) and in all honesty I have gone back and forth on this endlessly (leaving half-filled shopping carts all over the internet ) I am operating under 3 constraints. (1) Until this summer I am living in an RV (waiting to move into a house) -- so space is a huge consideration. I *could* just wait (and might), but since I am living on my own for now, I have time in the evenings to fill. Seemed a good opportunity to learn with no distractions. I will have to use a B&D workbench as my "bench" -- so the compact Lee Turret seemed a good fit. (2) Price -- just don't have the scratch in-hand for the full "beginners" setup for the RL-550B. And, for example, can't imagine how to setup the strong mount in this limited space. It seems to be highly recommended ... So I figured I would "part up" slowly and then spring for the RL-550B if I need the volume. (3) Now this one is "funny" -- not really, it's annoying. The place where I am living doesn't even allow handguns. I've broken this rule (sorry, I'm living alone), but I may have to forgo some internet purchases (might be a little SUSPICIOUS to have this stuff delivered ). So availability is important -- luckily I live in AZ and go up to the Phoenix area often. Hmmm, as I type this, might be a Dillon advantage. I know, odd circumstances. But I think I can make this work. I've been collecting my brass and will buy a tumbler next week to get the ball rolling. Any and all advice always welcome and appreciated! I'm very glad I found this forum, originally stumbled on it trying to learn about the different shooting competitions! JT I've got my 550B on a work mate bench. It's in our pantry. I don't have the strong mounts, maybe I don't know what I'm missing. Someone earlier posted a SDB as an option. That might be a good choice. You can also get almost all your money back if you ever decide to sell it and move up. They hold their value really well. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) I know, odd circumstances. But I think I can make this work. I've been collecting my brass and will buy a tumbler next week to get the ball rolling. I think the neighbors may figure out what you are up to. I would not consider running that tumbler inside your RV. The dust that thing gives off is not something you want to breathe. If there is no other option, load the bowl outside, seal it real good and run it inside. Take it back outside to dump the cleaned brass. Bill p.s. I guess I'm one of those reloaders from the stone age (been reloading since the mid-60's). My digital scale rarely gets out of its box but that really old RCBS 505 stays right there on the reloading bench. Edited January 28, 2012 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the sensitivity of scales to airflow - and in my experience, the digital scale seems to suffer from this far more than a balance beam scale. I've played around with about 4 different digital scales (Dillon, RCBS, PACT, and one of Brian's - maybe another, too), and always end up back on a BB. Even with shields around the scale to block airflow, and the A/C turned off, doors closed, etc, I've watched all of these scales weigh the exact same charge and/or check weight differently, even after reset, calibration, etc - that's different to the tune of a couple tenths of a grain. One of them was weighing the same weight +/- a full grain, until substantial measures were taken to protect it, and then it dropped to +/- 2 tenths. Meanwhile, my BB scale weighs the same charge the same, all the time, regardless of whether I have a fan on near it, or the garage door open, or whatever. For rifle charges, a couple tenths is perhaps not a huge deal (unless we're talking benchrest, maybe), but for pistol, you're talking a significant piece of the powder charge... So, I haven't seen an electronic scale yet that I feel duplicates the functionality of a solid BB scale - certainly nothing that gives me warm fuzzies like one, anyway... BTW - don't be turned off by notions of electronic scales having more accuracy than a BB scale - there's a very simple way to get that kind of accuracy from any scale that you like http://re-gun.com/2011/03/make-your-scale-more-accurate/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 After working in a lab with high end "lab grade" digital scales, I just don't trust the ones out there these days for reloading. We are checking pretty small amounts of mass afterall. I much prefer the visual feedback of a balance beam scale, if something is going on with airflow, etc., you are much more likely to notice it. Now with that said if I was going to try one, I'd go with the Dillon and get it from Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sr20ve Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) In the $70 range the Dillon Eliminator is tough to beat. I trust it way more then the Digital I have that is nearly the same as the one Brian Sells. Get the beam. If you can swing $140 get the Dillon Digital. It's that simply. I would never use a mid priced Digital as my primary scale. Period. I use that mid priced digital to weight the bullets that I cast. Edited January 29, 2012 by 98sr20ve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob DuBois Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Anyway you can swing it go with the 550 press first. A lot of quality ammo has been built using dial calipers and beam scales. Harbor Freight offers both a dial and electronic caliper that will work fine at a reasonable cost. A standard dial caliper is very easy to read and when your in a midnight session you won't worry about looking for battery's. I use a Dillon beam scale and a small Frankfort electronic as a check scale beside the press, works fine. I would not trust the Frankfort as my primary scale. While I use and recommend Lee's dies their turret press is something that would be replaced in a short period of time. The 550 will give you a lifetime of service while holding value. Spend a little time looking for a used press on Gunbroker or E Bay, might find a deal, just know what everything cost new so you don't overspend. Starting with a 550 just makes sense as you purchase other firearms it's ready to move up to any caliber you want. That next purchase may be a AR or bolt rifle. The 550 will step up and load ammo for it. Get the press then add the expensive scales and other items as Birthdays and Christmas roll around it won't take long to have a nice loading bench. Most of us started small and added over time, just takes a little while. Moved up last year to a 650, case feeder, powder sensor, electronic primer filler but still use the beam scale, works! Still have a 550 on the left side of the bench, it's just an old friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I work with the electronic scale and check it with the BB. I've scapped 2 electronic scales, on my 3rd now, and my Ohaus has been weighing accurate charges since 1968. If there is ever a question about weight the Ohaus always gives the right answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I was getting inconsistant readings from my digital scale a couple of weeks ago. Luckly I also have a Balance Beam scale. My digital scale went south on me but in it's defence it is 6 years old. Right now I will just use the BB scale as I am not working up loads just checking powder when I change lots. If yyou only have one scale go with the BB IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCT Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 The ironic thing about the digital scale debate is that I just signed off on 2 new scales for my lab -- $1500 for the analytical and $500 for the "standard". As noted by XRe and Shadowrider, airflow is paramount, we even shield off the standard scale (and the analytical is, of course, enclosed). I already own a nice dial caliper (I restore old film cameras) -- so that might do the trick for now. Hmmmm. If I went with the Dillon Eliminator to start and used my dial caliper, I could probably use the initial savings to get a basic RL-550B. I suppose I can build it up over time. So, really guys, a newbie can start with a progressive like the RL-550B? I *am* good with my hands, but am a little concerned about the progressive to start in terms of complexity. And hah, re the tumbler, Bill. Good point re: dust -- I figured I would probably run it in the shower... And heaven knows what my neighbors think -- I work these crazy long hours and have blacked out the back of the RV bunkhouse to use as a darkroom already. Maybe I will investigate alternate brass cleaning methods. Looks like it is time to start going over those gear spreadsheets again. I have really gone back and forth on this press decision! JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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