.357 sig for open

[Harmon]

anyone thought of this for a limited gun going open? brass is about as cheap as 9mm brass, and can be bought from LE ranges. all the factory loads make major so if you wanted to, you could shoot blazers at a match.

im looking into this or a major 9 gun, looking to build a open class blaster that doesnt use high dollar brass. I realize that this isnt going to hold as many rounds as a 9mm or 38 but it would be neat if you already had a 40.

[shred]

Been there, done that in 9x25 (except for the cheap brass part). Round count is everything and reloading .357 Sig is a nuisance. A few guys (Beven) are doing OK with Open .40's, but I'd still say spring an extra $200 on mags and be done with it.

[Chriss Grube]

I ran a .40 open and held my own with it but sooner or later it will hold you back. I switched to Major 9 and the round counts rocks and bullets are much cheaper. 9mm brass is everywhere, good luck find .357 sig once fired. It is a great round just not that popular though.

[JFlowers]

Harmongreer,

I have just started playing with a 357 SIG Open gun, not because it was my first choice but I picked it up to play with at a steal of a price. The biggest problem with 357 SIG for Open is round count. The best I can do is 20 in my 140mm magazine. But personally, thats okay with me, since I am used to making mag changes in L10 anyway.

But in the end, I will probably convert the slide back to iron sights and set the gun up as a .40 Limited and buy a new 9mm Open. If you are looking to buy, go 38 or 9mm.

[joelaw99]

JFLOWERS<<<i was thinking of acomped .357sig barrel for my glock 22, with a vanek trigger and doctor orjpoint for open,,,are the 140mm mags 15 rounders w/ 4 rd plate on bottom? figured the major9 would be a little less flip than the .40 if comped right???

[rtr]

If you want cheap brass for an open gun go major 9.

[Sestock]

Don't build a Glock open gun, spend the money and do it right, STI/SV/Para. A glock open gun puts you at a real disadvantage.

[joshua]

If we were still at the old power factor then the 357 Sig would be a great choice for open. TGO use to shoot 9x25 and did fine during those years. There are plenty of once fired brass out there selling for 15 - 20 bucks per K. If you're reloads are smooth then the capacity robbed by the fatter cases wouldn't matter, unless you get to the GM class where all the advantage you can have matters.

[Flexmoney]

Don't build a Glock open gun, spend the money and do it right, STI/SV/Para. A glock open gun puts you at a real disadvantage.

How so?

[BamBam]

My guess is trigger. Also, can you get glocks to run reliably with a 28 or 29 round big stick? Its not a huge disadvantage, but if you are starting from scratch its something to consider.

The .40 open gun just loses all around for capacity and for bullet weights/pressures. Open guns love to run light bullets and high pressure for the comps. Don't see how that can be matched with a .40 setup.

[Flexmoney]

My guess is trigger.

The trigger? Naaaaaah, can't be. It doesn't take much to make a Glock trigger feel pretty good. Maybe not Bullseye/Bianchi 1911 good (maybe so )...but the Glock trigger can be made to feel just fine, I think.

Also, can you get glocks to run reliably with a 28 or 29 round big stick? 

Yep. I can't speak for all setups, but mine seems to run fine with 28+.

The .40 open gun just loses all around for capacity and for bullet weights/pressures.  Open guns love to run light bullets and high pressure for the comps.  Don't see how that can be matched with a .40 setup.

I agree. Running 40 in Open seems like an up hill battle.

[SteveHarris]

One good point for 357 Sig is that the 125gr Fed American Eagle shoots major right out of the box (1350fps) for only $219 per 1,000 (shipping lincluded) from Ammoman.com. It hardly makes makes reloading Super Comp with new brass economical................. You may give up a few rounds in the mag but, with their downsized front end, they feed better. One feeding problem can 'pay for' a few extra mag changes..............

Steve

Edited January 8, 2006 by SteveHarris

[Radical Precision Designs]

One nice (?) thing about getting older is that you can't run as fast anymore, so you spend more time in your strategy for the stage. After awhile round count is not the main issue, and most stages are 8 round neutral anyway.

So, that said, why not .57 SiG? Actually, Midway has heaps of once fired .357 SiG brass dirt cheap. Plus you CAN form them "one pull" from .40 S&W brass.

A big plus is not to be limited to certain powders only as when shooting Open 9mm Major, and being able to make major easily with the 115 gr bullets.

I have a .40 S&W STI/SVI in Commander length slide/barrel which often times I shoot in Limited. It shoots just as good as my 5" slide/barrel. So I decided to make it into a "convertible" gun. It worked out perfectly. I built for it a new barrel and comp assembly to fit right in, just trade barrels. Same magazines. Sometimes I shoot it with iron sights. I obtained a Docter sight with a base adapter for Novak lo-mount. Now when I want a red dot I just slide out the iron sight and slide in the Docter. Works fine, with no loss of zero in either sight.

Of course, I still have my "serious" open and limited guns in addition. But it's indeed an option worth exploring.

[XRe]

My concern with it would be the difficulty that folks had getting *accurate* ammo w/ 9x25. Not that it can't be done, but in order to get extremely consistent ammo, you have to go through a lot of heuristics (fire form in your pistol to your exact chamber, trim, etc).

I don't personally have experience with either .357 Sig or 9x25, but there's a lot of info on here (esp. from shred) on what it takes/took to get accurate ammo out of a cartridge like that. Certainly, those catridges make it very easy to make major with light bullets - but at the expense of accuracy??

[Loves2Shoot]

Look at all the young kids suping up Honda's and Toyota's trying to make them like a "real" sports car. You can make any gun over 9mm an open gun, but you really have to ask yourself why. If it makes sense to you, then go for it, otherwise your just pissing your time and money away.

[XRe]

Just please don't put a fart-can muffler on it....

[spook]

Seems to me the only thing you'd be giving up is capacity in a division that is least dominated by capacity anyways. I say try it out first by shooting a "normal" open gun downloaded to 20 in a 140mm or 25 in a 170mm magazine. If your times don't suffer, go for it!

[eric nielsen]

I thought 357sig was a neat idea as it would be really cheap on brass & bullets, work the comp better than 9x19Major, and possibly have better feed-reliability in STI-type guns. Definitely could work with the factory ammo in an Open Glock. There's 2 ranges near me where you can pick up all the 357sig brass you want & it's $20/thousand on brassmanbrass.com.

But then I read on here about accuracy problems and fire-forming/trimming. Already heard about bullet-pull issues which IIRC come down to using enough stick-type powder to hold the bullet against set-back - the case won't do it for you.

I'd like to hear about anyone who tries it. If your clubs have a lot of 22-26round stages then you will be doing an extra mag change. If your stages are mostly 16-20 or 28-34 then there's no difference.

My impression is that the jury's still out on 9major in an STI or Para. Might need more innovation in the area of scope mounts, ejectors, and magazines. Seems like if there was enough demand, someone could make mags that have spacers built into the front & back, same as they have in the sides. And feedlips designed for 9x19.

[mpolans]

Have you ever thought of going the other way with that idea? Shot 9x19 Minor in Limited and having a separate barrel and comp for 9x19 Major Open?

anyone thought of this for a limited gun going open? brass is about as cheap as 9mm brass, and can be bought from LE ranges. all the factory loads make major so if you wanted to, you could shoot blazers at a match.

im looking into this or a major 9 gun, looking to build a open class blaster that doesnt use high dollar brass. I realize that this isnt going to hold as many rounds as a 9mm or 38 but it would be neat if you already had a 40.

[Radical Precision Designs]

Again, mag cartridge count is indeed important in open class. But you don't get to GM by being a slouch with your mag changes. How do people manage in States/Counries that have a ban on high cap mags? They learn to do quick effective mag changes and work out better strategies for shooting the stage. If there is a field course where the "extra" capacity mags have the edge, I "know" you can figure a "spot" to make that mag change without loosing crucial time.

R&D is necessary to accomplish anything where it requires a pistolsmith to "adapt" anything to be used in this Sport. That goes without saying. There are always hurdles to deal with. There are also "myths" and misinformation by shooters who don't like nor will consider anything different than what they are using or their 'smith recommends. That can be an additional stumbling stone towards development as most 'smith will go with the current of what presently sells. But go ahead and look, and if you can accept and live with the facts, go for it.

There always have been limitations when adapting a cartridge to our sport. If everybody had been one hundred percent satisfied with the .38 Super (which is still king in open) there would be no ".38 Supercomp". The issue lately is really one of "once fired brass" availability for an affordable price. Hence the popularity of 9mm Major or .40 S&W. Once upon a time brass availability was an issue with .357 SiG, but no more. As Eric Nielsen pointed out "brassman.com" has it, and as I pointed out also "Midway" has it, etc. In addition of which you can "size" your own from .40 S&W. By the way a "myth" to be dispelled is "fire-forming", as there is no need to fire-form what some people have come to call: ".40-9'er". Just run it through your "carbide dies" and go shoot.

The only two real issues of detraction for the .357 SiG/.40-9'er indeed are STI magazines (SVI mags work just fine... same as for 9mm feeding issues) and that of bullet "set-back/pushed in" during feeding up the ramp. The 9X25 suffered from the same malady of bullets re-seting during feeding. Many shooters cured that problem by using "super-high" volume powders and seating in top of that, or with a bit more crimp. But frankly, you should be able to get a "competent gunsmith" to solve that feeding problem for you, which is mostly a magazine issue.

Yesterday, a few shooters, myself included spent a few hours at the range with three chronos on hand and several guns to test and chrono. Various combinations of gun/calibers were tested, with too many combinations of bullet weigths and powders to list here. It was a fruitfull session. Among those combinations tested were some using the .357 SiG. It made "major" very controllably and easily with "any" weigth bullets at hand.

As for a lack of accuracy? Horse feathers!!!!

The only real question is: Can you handle it with one/two less rounds in your magazine before you "drop" it?????

[Mad Scientist]

IMHO

the only time I have been saved by a big stick is when every thing went south I did the math and figured the only time there would be an issue was on 26 or 28 round courses where the big stick would alow me to run thru with out a change the difference if all things are = and I did a static reload of 2 seconds is 18 points.I wouldent do it but there is nothing to say its a bad thing.(I never do static reloads except on clasifiers exept on those gone south things that I like to forget)

Johnnie

PS plan for it and enjoy

[Chriss Grube]

The jury has been back on 9 major for a few years. SV mags work great, aftec like in any other gun, scope mounts are the same whether it is a super or 9mm. If you're one the those guys that has to try every powder out there then stick to super. Maybe I'm just lazy but I found a load that easily makes major in 9 and that's what I've used for the last 3 years. I'm also a firm believe in if it aint broke don't try to fix it. Most of the problems I see with guns is operator induced stupidity of screwing eith a perfectly working gun. Have it built by a competent gunsmith, use SV mags, feed it good ammo and clean it once in a while and leave the dremel alone!

[shred]

Again, mag cartridge count is indeed important in open class. If there is a field course where the "extra" capacity mags have the edge, I "know" you can figure a "spot" to make that mag change without loosing crucial time.

...

The issue lately is really one of "once fired brass" availability for an affordable price. Hence the popularity of 9mm Major or .40 S&W.

An extra 2-3 rounds sometimes is several seconds or a much better reload spot, especially facing fields of steel. Been there, done that with the 9x25 (TGO said roughly the same thing once too) If you shoot a lot of international IPSC, then you're better off, but in the US, take the rounds and run. A second is like giving your competition a free no-shoot.

The "wierd" IPSC open calibers (9x19, 40, 357 Sig etc) seem popular is because people can't be bothered to pick up brass anymore. Pick it up a few times and the cost is the same.. almost zero. For a serious competitor the cost of brass is going to be negligible to every other cost to get to and stay at the top. For other people if they're not that serious or like to save your pennies then do whatever the heck you want and your gunsmith can make work.

The only two real issues of detraction for the .357 SiG/.40-9'er indeed are STI magazines ... and that of bullet "set-back/pushed in" during feeding up the ramp. The 9X25 suffered from the same malady of bullets re-seting during feeding.

Bullet design was the primary problem with setback on my 9x25-- it was hard finding bullets with a straight bearing surface far enough forward. The advent of the Sig helped that, but you still gotta be careful what bullet you pick (hint, don't go for the nice rounded FMJs). Once I used the right bullets, setback pretty much went away.

While I hear that 9x25 and .357 have theoretical feeding advantages (I've seen it's possible to have the same 100% reliability with most any IPSC cartridge), they do suffer from an additional failure mode that the straight-wall cases don't-- bits of grit stuck in the chamber keep the gun from going into battery. Load a JHP with some tumbling media in the hollowpoint that gets loose and you'll be racking rounds left and right until that grain comes out.

[JFlowers]

I have been running my .357 Sig Open gun (Built on a Para) for about 18 months now. Brass is easy to obtain, I use a Zero 115gr 9mm bullet and setback is not a problem using 3N38 since I am loading a full case of powder. At the 2005 SC Section I was a bit over power factor and gun recoil was not a problem as the load/comp combination is a real jump killer.

But I have had a few problems, but they are normal open gun issues rather than issues caused by the .357 Sig cartridge. The gun was bought with an old Firepoint sight mounted, its caused the vast majority of the issues and has been replaced with a C-More. On occasion magazines cause me grief.

I can get 25 in my 170s (old S_I for Para tube and Dawson +1 basepad) and 21 in my 140s (Para tube and Dawson +2 basepad). With no Para 170 tubes available, I am experimenting with other magazines combinations but no real success yet. There have been courses where the 28/9+1 of a 38S or 9mm would have made a difference but most can be overcome with a little planning.

Would I recommend .357 Sig to someone building a new gun...... not really. No real issues with it, I would just recommend 38S family instead. But converting an existing 40 over ... if thats the road you want to take, it is very doable.

[spook]

Shred, good point. I was talking about IPSC. I don't know if capacity would be a big problem in USPSA. From what I've seen on US Nationals DVD's I can only say that the difference would also be minimal. Unless you run into real hoser stages where you're just blasting at brown from the beep until the last target.