Long Range Stages and Uncontrollable Variables

[MarkCO]

Is 3-gun Pistol-Shotgun-Carbine, or Pistol-Shotgun-Rifle?

For HM categories, I would argue it is rifle. For Limited, Tac-Scope and Open, it is mostly carbines.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Is 3-gun Pistol-Shotgun-Carbine, or Pistol-Shotgun-Rifle?

For HM categories, I would argue it is rifle. For Limited, Tac-Scope and Open, it is mostly carbines.

I agree unless it's lacking a scope.

[Tizzle]

I think we all like what we're best at. The super fast stuff, IMO, is a lot harder to master than the long range and less affected by weather. The top dogs, Patrick, Jesse, etc. have a lot more to lose than the

rest of us when they fall way down the ranking from a bad stage or two - especially when it's from something they aren't responsible for like weather.

The problem is that not only do some of us like the long stuff for the challenge, but it's also what makes the sport for us... to hose a couple of 3 yard targets as you run past them and then immediately drop

down and engage the 400 yarders is epic.

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

[bigbrowndog]

editted because I really don't want to start another bitch session about targets or distances or what is or isn't "real world" or whatever,

trapr

Edited December 16, 2011 by bigbrowndog

[EkuJustice]

I dont have a problem with the 300yd or so stuff. Throw in some 6-700 yard shots and Im throwing one in the general direction on the move and moving on. Not wasting the ammo or time for a mike anyway

[mike cyrwus]

thanks Trapr; the positive reinforcement training is paying off. I owe somebody a beer

You know, Im going to come shoot whatever match is fun; hosing is fun, long range is fun, tight shots are fun, its all fun.

I was talking to Jesse about this yesterday in regards to prize tables, but it also fits here in regards to weather and stage disparity; Sometimes you make out, sometimes you get screwed. If you shoot enough matches, it evens out. It really does. And at the end of the year, you can smile about all the fun you had as you start filling out apps for the next year.

[MikeE]

Rifle shooting starts from 150 meter......

[AlamoShooter]

possibly a side spin , but at this year Rocky Mountain one of my most memorable stages of the year was when I spot in the squad line was up and the rain was starting, with no indication from the clouds that it would stop any time soon. I was given an option from the RO to Wait it out or Shoot. my dumb axs mouth says I'm here to shoot give me the make ready he did and the Rain Opened up hard just after the clock started.

I was happy that I stuck with it for a reasonable stage under some bad condition. the rain was hard enough to keep the timer running at the end of the stage with , so don't even know if I got the rite time.

As all that proved though was some of us will enjoy the stupidest things for the sake of a challenge

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

Definitely! For instance the 4 stage 3 gun nation shoot in match had long range shooting on all 4 stages despite the fact that a typical 8-10 stage match has long range shooting on 2-3 or about 25-30% of the stages.

It's the easiest way to make the matches harder.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

thanks Trapr; the positive reinforcement training is paying off. I owe somebody a beer

You know, Im going to come shoot whatever match is fun; hosing is fun, long range is fun, tight shots are fun, its all fun.

I was talking to Jesse about this yesterday in regards to prize tables, but it also fits here in regards to weather and stage disparity; Sometimes you make out, sometimes you get screwed. If you shoot enough matches, it evens out. It really does. And at the end of the year, you can smile about all the fun you had as you start filling out apps for the next year.

I hate it when guys say vanilla crap because they are scared their match applications will accidentally get lost in the mail or they might not sell a few guns.

Snap!!! For those of you that don't know Mike is my wife's favorite Gun Smith so we like to mess with each other.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

Definitely! For instance the 4 stage 3 gun nation shoot in match had long range shooting on all 4 stages despite the fact that a typical 8-10 stage match has long range shooting on 2-3 or about 25-30% of the stages.

It's the easiest way to make the matches harder.

Totally agree, but it sometimes seems the pendulum has swung too far toward "making matches harder". As an earlier poster mentioned, this ever-increasing difficulty only makes it harder to grow the sport.

[Jesse Tischauser]

possibly a side spin , but at this year Rocky Mountain one of my most memorable stages of the year was when I spot in the squad line was up and the rain was starting, with no indication from the clouds that it would stop any time soon. I was given an option from the RO to Wait it out or Shoot. my dumb axs mouth says I'm here to shoot give me the make ready he did and the Rain Opened up hard just after the clock started.

I was happy that I stuck with it for a reasonable stage under some bad condition. the rain was hard enough to keep the timer running at the end of the stage with , so don't even know if I got the rite time.

As all that proved though was some of us will enjoy the stupidest things for the sake of a challenge

I completely agree with you. It's always challenging and fun to some extent to take on a challenge, succeed and get better while doing it.

Unfortunately none of us are true professionals despite the great sponsors that support us we still lose money attending matches which makes this a great hobby sport. So If I want to be able to afford to shoot all 12 or so major matches I have to count on finishing high enough to win a prize that allows me to recoup a significant portion of my expenses. I would much rather be able to shoot every match than be challenged by uncontrollable weather variables at just a few matches.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[M ammo]

possibly a side spin , but at this year Rocky Mountain one of my most memorable stages of the year was when I spot in the squad line was up and the rain was starting, with no indication from the clouds that it would stop any time soon. I was given an option from the RO to Wait it out or Shoot. my dumb axs mouth says I'm here to shoot give me the make ready he did and the Rain Opened up hard just after the clock started.

I was happy that I stuck with it for a reasonable stage under some bad condition. the rain was hard enough to keep the timer running at the end of the stage with , so don't even know if I got the rite time.

As all that proved though was some of us will enjoy the stupidest things for the sake of a challenge

I completely agree with you. It's always challenging and fun to some extended to take on a challenge, succeed and get better while doing it. Unfortunately non of us are true professionals in that we make more money for the more matches we shoot. So If I want to be able to afford to shoot all 12 or so major matches I have to could in finishing high enough to win a prize that allows me to recoup a significant portion of my expenses. I would much rather be able to shoot every match than be challenged bu uncontrollable weather variables at just a few matches.

Pat nailed it,, at some point it is not

3- Gun or Multi- Gun at long range.

with a target smaller than Full man size.

You do know that many of the Epic Sniper shots, were not all head shots, at 600, they were just hits, on tgt.

as for range conditions.. Next time it is my time to shoot with 30 MPH wind and the sun in my eyes.

and a few hours or the next day it is clear calm, with the sun at your back!

It is the luck of the draw, but it is not the same stage eather.

Jim M ammo

[ArmdCtzn]

Around here nobody has room for shots beyond 100 yards. Most matches are actually much closer than even that, as far as local club matches go. I'd love to have some shots out a little farther but you don't need them to have a good match. Right now some of the clubs with a little more range simply set out five or six plates at about 100 yards that you engage from one position. Boring. I'd rather move from barricade to barricade, shooting under, around, and over stuff at targets 20-40 yards away than engage five plates at 100 yards from one position. I think a shot from an awkward position at a partially obscured target 100 yards away is more fun and challenging than a shot at a steel flash target in the open 400 yards away.

[Chuck Anderson]

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

Definitely! For instance the 4 stage 3 gun nation shoot in match had long range shooting on all 4 stages despite the fact that a typical 8-10 stage match has long range shooting on 2-3 or about 25-30% of the stages.

It's the easiest way to make the matches harder.

What match did you shoot in W.VA? That match was all mid range at most, except for the Barrett. Stage 1 41 yards. stage 2 about 100, stage 3 225, stage 4 under 200. Even if I was goin to agree with you about long range stages, and I don't, none of those stages were long range.

Long range tests skills that can not be measured at short range, no matter the size of the target. Wind, distance are all part of actually using a rifle. Weather changes, deal with it. Shoot long enough and you'll get to shoot in all weather conditions.

You're not going to make everyone happy. Even if you split the long range stages onto different days people will complain about wind in the afternoon, light in the morning, afternoon, midday whatever.

Just sack up and shoot Nancy

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

Definitely! For instance the 4 stage 3 gun nation shoot in match had long range shooting on all 4 stages despite the fact that a typical 8-10 stage match has long range shooting on 2-3 or about 25-30% of the stages.

It's the easiest way to make the matches harder.

What match did you shoot in W.VA? That match was all mid range at most, except for the Barrett. Stage 1 41 yards. stage 2 about 100, stage 3 225, stage 4 under 200. Even if I was goin to agree with you about long range stages, and I don't, none of those stages were long range.

Long range tests skills that can not be measured at short range, no matter the size of the target. Wind, distance are all part of actually using a rifle. Weather changes, deal with it. Shoot long enough and you'll get to shoot in all weather conditions.

You're not going to make everyone happy. Even if you split the long range stages onto different days people will complain about wind in the afternoon, light in the morning, afternoon, midday whatever.

Just sack up and shoot Nancy

I think the only logical response to that post is this...

BWAHAHA!!! I told everybody this was going to happen!! BTW if I ever have a question I'll be sure to call you Chuck. You seems to know everything about EVERYTHING!! I think you would be a shoe-in for the mayor of the multi-gun forum.

[JRW]

This is an interesting discussion. Granted, I am only starting to crack the top 40% on my best day, but I am not bothered by the weather. It falls under the category of things I cannot control.

From a Match Administration/Stage Design/Rules perspective, weather cannot be controlled. Thinking about the ranges which host many of the major matches, there typically isn't space to have three worthwhile long-range stages. My understanding of the increase penalty for LR targets was to prevent competitors from just skipping those targets and taking the penalty. As has been pointed out above, the things we can control are:

• Target Size
  
• Contrasting Target Backing
  
• Target Placement to Minimize Lighting/Shadow Issues
  
• Painting Targets at Regular Intervals
  

To my knowledge, none of these are covered in the IMGA rules. Even if they were, since most of the matches we all attend are 'Outlaw' matches there may never be consistent application. Even if these were agreed to for all matches, there are escalating implications to the match staff requirements and expense.

Maybe we need to address the 800lb gorilla in the corner...is this still an issue at a "club-level" match when there isn't a prize table. If this is all driven by the impact to finish higher and to pick prizes of higher value earlier, then maybe we should rethink the prize table concept.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Maybe we need to address the 800lb gorilla in the corner...is this still an issue at a "club-level" match when there isn't a prize table.

Our club level matches get a lot easier and the longer range shooting gets reduced or eliminated if its terribly windy, raining or snowing. Who wants to watch newbies shooting until they time out and use $50 in ammo while trying to hit a 300 yard Colt Autopopper in the 40 mph wind?

When I started this thread I wasn't concerned with prize tables at all I was just curious as to other folks ideas about the importance of longer range shooting in this sport and the effects of the elements on that longer range shooting.

It is obvious there is not clear and easy solution or I wouldn't have started the thread. I know there are a lot of very smart guys that shoot this game so I figured a good discussion might bring out some good ideas to better then sport.

I think we can all agree that nobody likes to win or lose because they had the better target presentation than their competitors. Thats what its all about. How do we make the match the same for every shooter?

[gerritm]

This is an interesting discussion. Granted, I am only starting to crack the top 40% on my best day, but I am not bothered by the weather. It falls under the category of things I cannot control.

From a Match Administration/Stage Design/Rules perspective, weather cannot be controlled. Thinking about the ranges which host many of the major matches, there typically isn't space to have three worthwhile long-range stages. My understanding of the increase penalty for LR targets was to prevent competitors from just skipping those targets and taking the penalty. As has been pointed out above, the things we can control are:

• Target Size
  
• Contrasting Target Backing
  
• Target Placement to Minimize Lighting/Shadow Issues
  
• Painting Targets at Regular Intervals
  

To my knowledge, none of these are covered in the IMGA rules. Even if they were, since most of the matches we all attend are 'Outlaw' matches there may never be consistent application. Even if these were agreed to for all matches, there are escalating implications to the match staff requirements and expense.

Maybe we need to address the 800lb gorilla in the corner...is this still an issue at a "club-level" match when there isn't a prize table. If this is all driven by the impact to finish higher and to pick prizes of higher value earlier, then maybe we should rethink the prize table concept.

Maybe someone can answer a question from a newer shooter. First I absolutely love the long range. Evens out the playing field for us older slower shooters. I have shot the CCC matches since they started and all are longer range from 100-500 yards and am learning my rifle and scope and thoroughly enjoy them.

My question: Is the game to hit the targets or to find them and hit them? Not quite sure. The above list is what I don't understand. Why is that not the main set up and concern for all matches when they have long range stages.

If finding and then hitting the targets is the main focus of the stage, I understand the black targets in the rain, darkenss, and fog. If hitting the targets is the game then why not follow the above list and make it possible to plainly see the targets in whatever environment is happening at the time.

gerritm

[RiggerJJ]

How do we make the match the same for every shooter?

Simple answer?

sorry but...you can't...

jj

[Tizzle]

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

Definitely! For instance the 4 stage 3 gun nation shoot in match had long range shooting on all 4 stages despite the fact that a typical 8-10 stage match has long range shooting on 2-3 or about 25-30% of the stages.

It's the easiest way to make the matches harder.

Do you think it's something you can learn to get better at or is it just unfair because each shooter won't shoot in the exact same conditions?

BTW, what ammo do you use for the long stuff?

[busyhawk]

If you want a true even playing field then take up Chess, ping pong or some other indoor sport. Even then lighting and temp is different from venue to venue

Having targets over 150 yards isn't a harder target...however the target should be at least a 4 MOA. Does a longer target take more time, yes and you might have to take your time and call your shot. Now a closer say 100 yard 4 inch target is pretty hard on steel targets if you are shooting steel. As match directors I don't like to replace steel just because of the HM shooters at 100 yards hammer the hell out of the steel. Of course both MGM and R&R Targets have supported our sport to the max and God bless them for their support but match management must take into effect replacements, both cost and time too.

I am guessing some of you don't like natural terrain matches either? Vegetation changes from every shooter so take this out too?

Oh, and while we are at it make all shotgun targets where any target is capable with an open choke...where no skill or knowledge is needed to know your pattern or power of your shot it takes to knock down a steel target. I am just guessing the High Plains Shotgun match will change this just for you shooters that want a level/easy playing field.

As Match Directors and competitors we try our best to provide a even safe playing field, keep things on time, a shooting challenge that a C class shooter is capable of, and a fun venue for all shooters. I like how Jesse is trying to bring up a good topic but really? As the Co-Match Director of the Northwest Multi-Gun Challenge my main focus is the B/C class shooter. He is paying the bills for the match and I want him to enjoy the match and come away with a sense of challenge and accomplishment. Balance is very important and is a hard call but in the end it is a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess). Weather is out of our control but we try to pick out a time of year that will best suit our/the shooters needs but in the end God is in control...as he should be.

It is hard enough to prof a match for the targets which present a consistent presentation and having the ROs score/call hits. I know no one is trashing ROs as we all know they/we are doing the best we can do. Of course flying clay targets are another story and is talked about in another thread.

One last question...

Want some cheese to go with this whine?

Putting my Nomex on...again.

RLTW,

Busyhawk

[Lee King]

Elements affect more than just long range rifle. How many multi-day pistol matches have had extreme weather from one day to the next? Can you say the pistol shooters having to slog through ankle deep mud one day have the same chance as shooters who may not have to deal with it the next?

What about the guy who has to shoot a 100 yard rifle stage with the sun just over the berm in his face in the morning vs. the guy who does it in perfect light at noon? At some point you just have to go with it as the nature of the game.

[Langenator]

Maybe we need to address the 800lb gorilla in the corner...is this still an issue at a "club-level" match when there isn't a prize table.

Our club level matches get a lot easier and the longer range shooting gets reduced or eliminated if its terribly windy, raining or snowing. Who wants to watch newbies shooting until they time out and use $50 in ammo while trying to hit a 300 yard Colt Autopopper in the 40 mph wind?

As gerritm got to in the post following Jesse's, at least one local match - CCC here in College Station - routinely has long range. But now it's out a bit past 600. And the cross winds were gusting 40+ last time out.

May or may not be possible, but one way to possibly reduce the effects of wind is to try to lay out the long stages so that the prevailing winds come from 6 or 12 o'clock. Won't always be that way, but decreases the chances of major cross winds.

If you want to keep the shots shorter, maybe use designated shooting boxes and barriers to force shooters to shoot from more challenging positions - i.e. off-hand. An 8"/4 MOA target at 200, engaged from the off-hand position, is a good challenge. Slighlty different problem set than a 4MOA/20" target at 500, but still a good challenge.` And off-hand, wind blowing the shooter might be more of a challenge than wind blowing the bullet at longer range.

[Jesse Tischauser]

How do we make the match the same for every shooter?

Simple answer?

sorry but...you can't...

jj

How do we make the match the more similar for every shooter?