Long Range Stages and Uncontrollable Variables

[Jesse Tischauser]

So we all like shooting the long range stage in 3 gun right? Well until your squad has to shoot it in the morning fog, the afternoon rain, the day that had 50 mph winds. It seems like every match has a half day or more worth of shooting that obviously is a disadvantage for those shooters that have to shoot the long stuff on those days. So why do we do it?

Why don't we just shoot to 100 or 150 yards rather than 300 or 350? Wind, rain, and other weather conditions are much less of a factor at closer distances. Would Shooting more targets/stages at closer long range targets detract from the fun? Is it even possible to eliminate or even reduce mother natures impact on the outcome of the match?

[M ammo]

So we all like shooting the long range stage in 3 gun right? Well until your squad has to shoot it in the morning fog, the afternoon rain, the day that had 50 mph winds. It seems like every match has a half day or more worth of shooting that obviously is a disadvantage for those shooters that have to shoot the long stuff on those days. So why do we do it?

Why don't we just shoot to 100 or 150 yards rather than 300 or 350? Wind, rain, and other weather conditions are much less of a factor at closer distances. Would Shooting more targets/stages at closer long range targets detract from the fun? Is it even possible to eliminate or even reduce mother natures impact on the outcome of the match?

You hit the nail on the head!

I have made comments like this in the past, and lets just say some folks,,, Kind of called my names,,,

Running a fair match is the key.

[Bryan 45]

I personally would rather take my chances at bad or good weather and enjoy the long range stages than limit it to 150 yards in order to make weather conditions less of an issue.

If it's not wind for LR rifle, it's cold for shotgun loading, or mud for jungle runs, or heat/dehydration, or natural light, or taco shits from bad mexican. Until we shoot in a bubble (or underground in a cave!) we're just going to have to deal w/ weather.

Impact could be reduced by having matches in geographical areas that have more consistent weather. But, part of what I like about the sport is seeing different parts of the country.

[outerlimits]

I personally would rather take my chances at bad or good weather and enjoy the long range stages than limit it to 150 yards in order to make weather conditions less of an issue.

If it's not wind for LR rifle, it's cold for shotgun loading, or mud for jungle runs, or heat/dehydration, or natural light, or taco shits from bad mexican. Until we shoot in a bubble (or underground in a cave!) we're just going to have to deal w/ weather.

Impact could be reduced by having matches in geographical areas that have more consistent weather. But, part of what I like about the sport is seeing different parts of the country.

+1

there's something satisfying seeing a larue drop at 400 yards, slightly after breaking the shot. i hate hosing rifle stages.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

So we all like shooting the long range stage in 3 gun right? Well until your squad has to shoot it in the morning fog, the afternoon rain, the day that had 50 mph winds. It seems like every match has a half day or more worth of shooting that obviously is a disadvantage for those shooters that have to shoot the long stuff on those days. So why do we do it?

Why don't we just shoot to 100 or 150 yards rather than 300 or 350? Wind, rain, and other weather conditions are much less of a factor at closer distances. Would Shooting more targets/stages at closer long range targets detract from the fun? Is it even possible to eliminate or even reduce mother natures impact on the outcome of the match?

I agree that weather conditions can make a huge difference on the LR stages, but don't think we should rid of them altogether (they're just too much fun). You do make a good argument about the effects of weather - I think precision can still be tested at shorter ranges by simply reducing target size (think of the mini-poppers at the Ozark match). One thing I've noticed over the past few years is the increasing point value that many MDs seem to place on LR shooting. At least a couple matches this year seemed to "overvalue" LR stages, either by increased point values or by simply having too many of them.

Personally, I'd much rather shoot a hoser stage with upclose targets than shoot a sniper match on the clock - but that's just a matter of personal taste.

[AlamoShooter]

personally I would rather see more long range stages in stead of less. I have just seen all the shooting games get easier / less of a challenge over the years.

this is how more than one long range stage set with the squadding separated so that every squad shot a long range every day of the match. So every squad would shoot a long range stage on Evey day of the match = three day match = three long stages, or at least stages that include long shots. I like the mix of speed and distance in the stages.

Its a fact too that a speed stage can equally effect the out come of a match if that same cold windy day one squad has to shoot a 10 second stage when 1 second is 10% of the stage points

Every squad could have a speed stage in the same mix.

An Old thorn has been the best start times being given to the "Special Squads" so that don't have to shoot at 7:30 Am or 7:30 PM

I found over the years some type of Variable - controlled or Not will effect the out come of a match. The more I learned to look past it the happier I got

The one that matters knows what conditions you had to shoot under,

I end up ahead of better shooters at every match I attend for one reason or another, I think normally it is because they are distracted by something that they can not control.

Edited December 15, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[D.Hayden]

Jesse, as the Mayor of 3 Gun Town.. surely you jest?

If we shoot at 100-150.. lets just use pistols!

It's the 300-400 yard stuff that's the most fun

[Doug H.]

Maybe it's just me, but I like shooting 3 or 4 hundred yards with some wind. It takes a little more skill than just holding dead on in perfect conditions. At Ironman this year I had about 2 mils dialed into my scope and was still holding on the left edge of the 700 yard target. Making 5 hits in a row, priceless!

Unfortunately there is no way to make the real world exactly the same for each shooter and I would hate to dumb down matches to where there was basically no long range at all.

Doug

[Tizzle]

Long range keeps the mall ninjas at the mall. You really have to know how to use your weapon to hit at extended ranges. The close range stuff, while fun and challenging, takes a really good xbox finger.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Maybe it's just me, but I like shooting 3 or 4 hundred yards with some wind.

That's exactly my point Doug. We all love the long stuff but unfortunately with 3 day matches the weather is usually drastically different on one of those days. So 1/3 of the shooters get screwed for a lack of a better word. I have been the screwer and the screwee and I really don't like being screwed and its not fun when you finish higher because of luck not skill.

Since you like the wind maybe we should take volunteers to shoot the long stages on the crappiest day because its more of a challenge fun.

[MarkCO]

How about 200 yard stages, with a jet engine at 100 yards and your squad mates get to control the throttle.

I like the longer range stages, they are what help move me up a few places in the big matches. But I don't like seeing a top competitor removed from a shot at a win because of weather. Generally, the top shooters are at the top, but as the range shortens, at some point, those who are not skilled riflemen move up, and obviously vice versa. Personally, I don't consider it "Long Range" until we get out to 600 yards or so.

IMHO, let the matches decide and vote with your entry...there are certainly enough matches now.

[P.E. Kelley]

With distances beyond 350 yards and targets less the 4 MOA in size 3 Gun becomes two gun and a precision rifle.

If that is what you want fine. Just don't bill it as 3 Gun.

MGM IronMan does it right as a 3Gun match with a 4th precision rifle on a stage.

JJ and Denise limit the number of long range targets AND make them BIGGER and that works for me.

Has SMM3G not been challenging enough with targets no further than 350?

Were all the Ozark mini poppers a breeze at under 150???

How about threading bullets through the 1.5" steel "no-shoot" holes covering the MGM plate rack at 50 yards at last years 3GN match???

Oh yea, you all easily cleaned that stage at the Pro-Am were we shot through the AR15.COM logo at the 100/200 targets.

A challenge can be had well before targets reach 350 yards, and as Jesse said this reduces the effect of weather to some degree.

I just hope some of my favorite matches do not go to far down the road of further is better as that will mean fewer matches that I'll support.

Just my opinion guys, nothing more.

Patrick

[Jesse Tischauser]

personally I would rather see more long range stages in stead of less. I have just seen all the shooting games get easier / less of a challenge over the years.

That's actually a great idea!!! Maybe instead of getting rid of longer shots we spread them out onto 3 stages such as stage 1, 4, 7 so everybody shoots a long range stage everyday. That way everybody gets the challenge of shooting in the wind on the windy day, the rain on the rainy day and so on.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

Weather, amount of illumination, time of day, and terrain are all conditions this old tank sergeant learned to deal with while piloting tracked RV's throughout Bavaria and certain stateside localities while doing the move, shoot,and communicate thing. These conditions all add to the challenge of the stages and the matches I now shoot. And, for me, add to the thrill and sense of accomplishment at the end of the matches.

Jesse's idea of spreading the long range stages out during the match is a solution. And we need to encourage match directors to keep long range stages in their matches so we keep that skill set current. Short and medium range targets/stages need to be kept or included where possible, also.

[MarkCO]

If that is what you want fine. Just don't bill it as 3 Gun.

Can we call it "Multi-Gun" then

I'm still not sure what folks "call" certain distances. I've used short range to mean under 300, mid range 300-600 and long over 600.

At the Noveske COMG Championship, we will have all the targets short range except one, and it will be mid-range, and large!

[Bryan 45]

Mark, just my opinion, but your distances are more like a precision game than multigun. I think many 3G shooters would classify it something like under 100 is short, 100-250 is medium, over 250 is long.

Patrick makes great points about the different challenges in the game. The beauty of the sport is that we are presented with all of these and more at different matches.

[MarkCO]

Mark, just my opinion, but your distances are more like a precision game than multigun. I think many 3G shooters would classify it something like under 100 is short, 100-250 is medium, over 250 is long.

Patrick makes great points about the different challenges in the game. The beauty of the sport is that we are presented with all of these and more at different matches.

Your opinion (and Patrick's) is well received

[Don Springer]

Doesn't 400 yards plus get a little ridiculous on plain ol eyes? Then throw in the fog or wind? I don't shoot irons but it's something to think about.

[Lead-Head]

All I shoot is irons and I love the long range stages.

For me it is not so much the range, but the shooting postion, or the target presentation that make some long range stages questionable. There have been a few stages I could not see the target at 150 because of the sun position. There is not a lot you can do the predict weather, but if it is too dark to see target, they are in the shade, there is no decernable target outline against the background, or the sun postion is a major influence, the stage design needs to be changed in order to make the targets "hitable" in my opinion.

I don't like to hear shooters discussing which plates they are going to "throw a few rounds at and move on" as part of their plan.

If you have the entire squad squinting and using binos to find a steel plate, there may be a problem.

[mpeltier]

So we all like shooting the long range stage in 3 gun right? Well until your squad has to shoot it in the morning fog, the afternoon rain, the day that had 50 mph winds. It seems like every match has a half day or more worth of shooting that obviously is a disadvantayge for those shooters that have to shoot the long stuff on those days. So why do we do it?

Why don't we just shoot to 100 or 150 yards rather than 300 or 350? Wind, rain, and other weather conditions are much less of a factor at closer distances. Would Shooting more targets/stages at closer long range targets detract from the fun? Is it even possible to eliminate or even reduce mother natures impact on the outcome of the match?

Not really.

I don't know.

I don't know

No.

No.

(My answers to your five questions)

Edited December 16, 2011 by mpeltier

[Don Springer]

All I shoot is irons and I love the long range stages.

For me it is not so much the range, but the shooting postion, or the target presentation that make some long range stages questionable. There have been a few stages I could not see the target at 150 because of the sun position. There is not a lot you can do the predict weather, but if it is too dark to see target, they are in the shade, there is no decernable target outline against the background, or the sun postion is a major influence, the stage design needs to be changed in order to make the targets "hitable" in my opinion.

I don't like to hear shooters discussing which plates they are going to "throw a few rounds at and move on" as part of their plan.

If you have the entire squad squinting and using binos to find a steel plate, there may be a problem.

Well if people who shoot irons are cool with it then so am I.

[Jesse Tischauser]

So we all like shooting the long range stage in 3 gun right?

Well until your squad has to shoot it in the morning fog, the afternoon rain, the day that had 50 mph winds. It seems like every match has a half day or more worth of shooting that obviously is a disadvantayge for those shooters that have to shoot the long stuff on those days.

So why do we do it?

Why don't we just shoot to 100 or 150 yards rather than 300 or 350?

Wind, rain, and other weather conditions are much less of a factor at closer distances.

Would Shooting more targets/stages at closer long range targets detract from the fun?

Is it even possible to eliminate or even reduce mother natures impact on the outcome of the match?

Not really.

I don't know.

I don't know

No.

No.

(My answers to your five questions)

I had to do that so i could understand my questions in relation to your answers.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[mpeltier]

personally I would rather see more long range stages in stead of less. I have just seen all the shooting games get easier / less of a challenge over the years.

Is this a reality of fact or simply your perspective as your skills advance?

It seems to me that more often of late the matches have gotten more challenging overall, not less. More mid range rifle, longer pistol shots, higher round counts etc. For the veteran shooters it may be fine, but what effect does this pose to attracting new and maintaining middle of the pack competitors (for lack of a better term). ? Does it not deter growth to our sport by designing stages tailored to the highly skilled, yet intimidating to those who are new or interested.

[mpeltier]

So we all like shooting the long range stage in 3 gun right?

Well until your squad has to shoot it in the morning fog, the afternoon rain, the day that had 50 mph winds. It seems like every match has a half day or more worth of shooting that obviously is a disadvantayge for those shooters that have to shoot the long stuff on those days.

So why do we do it?

Why don't we just shoot to 100 or 150 yards rather than 300 or 350?

Wind, rain, and other weather conditions are much less of a factor at closer distances.

Would Shooting more targets/stages at closer long range targets detract from the fun?

Is it even possible to eliminate or even reduce mother natures impact on the outcome of the match?

Not really.

I don't know.

I don't know

No.

No.

(My answers to your five questions)

I had to do that so i could understand my questions in relation to your answers.

Thanks Jessie. I typed that from my phone and this thing is not very typing and editing friendly.

[Langenator]

Fog, dust, precipitation of any form...about the only way you can try to make everyone share the impact of those is to have multiple long range stages, so everyone shoots one every day. Unless you have a big enough range to line everyone up at once with their own shooting lane and shoot simultaneously. But even Camp Perry doesn't manage that.

Wind maybe have the RO give each squad or each shooter the wind direction and speed ("Wind is from 9 o'clock at 15 mph. Shooter ready?") and let them do the math.

To argue semantics, carbines are short range weapons, rifles are long range weapons. Is 3-gun Pistol-Shotgun-Carbine, or Pistol-Shotgun-Rifle?