3 Gun Nation Tour 2012

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Can't wait to see a list of the top 64; just hope it's based solely on performance and not sponsorship or popularity.

Really hope this new format works, but it must have a solid (fair) foundation with no perception of favoritism.

Here's the list of overall standings.

http://3gunnation.com/the_series/standings/s/overall_standings

Don't forget shooters can opt in or out of the PRO Series so most likely the names will go much deeper than 64.

Thanks for the link, I've actually looked at it a couple times since the announcement was made. I thought the top 64 list was composed of those who competed in T/O Division exclusively.

Or is it the top 64 on the list, regardless of Division they competed in?

Thanks again.

[Jadeslade]

Look-its a private enterprise, they can do what they want. I like Rob -he's a class act all by his little self, I am sure he will do a good job. I haven't liked the TV shows, but I think that is what they are trying to improve. I would hope so. Read Pat Kelley's post-they have to start somewhere. And anybody can buy themselves into any match they want if you want to spend sponsor bucks. Over the long haul-you will still see the same shooters. I would love to be competing in this-but I was injured for most of the year-that is the way life goes sometimes. Can we keep the negativity out of this? Superstition Mountain is still the best 3Gun Match, and is kind of like the standard in Matchdom. The Larue Match has great potential to be similiar. Iron Man is a load out and an extremely popular match, the Rocky Mountain 3G is an NRA Range match of epic dimensions and also extremely popular. DPMS is history, the other new matches are in flux-it is a big load of work to run a 3 gun safely. I hope the Ft. Benning Match comes back, that's my favorite match after Superstition Mountain. Having being around the cameras and crap two years in a row, it is a pain in the ass actually, so I am glad that they won't be at every match this year. I like these guys, they are my friends, so let's wish them luck and stop the negativity. They may fall flat on their face-who knows-let's give them an attaboy, way to go. We hang together.

[DyNo!]

Or is it the top 64 on the list, regardless of Division they competed in?

Thanks again.

Top 64 regardless of division with the calculation being:

Your Final Match Score/1st Place Match Score in Your Division (With a base of 100%)

(Using your best 3 match scores)

Edited January 29, 2012 by DyNo!

[Bryan 45]

Craig, you are quite the master debater.

I'm really surprised it's caused so much friction that not everyone has the opportunity to spend $250 match fee + travel for a couple of one day matches.

[sdm74]

Greg Jordan finished way up there in the 3gn stats and you have to wonder where a shooter like that would end up under these rules going forward.

Assuming Greg started shooting this year (2012) and participated in either the Divisional races or the upcoming qualifying match, his past performance would indicate that he would most likely receive an invite to the PRO Series for 2013.

Yes 1 match, for all the marbles. That is if you can somehow beat out the hundreds of others trying to get on the list for that one match. I predict that one match sells out in less then a day. And like howard said, hope you don't have a malfunction, which im sure every top competitor did at one point or another last year, I hope its not at that "1" match.

Did you even read the above posts containing the information that there will be a path through the Divisional races as well, or do you just want to continue believing your false assumption, factual information be damned?

What division should you run this year to qualify to run in the pro circuit in 2013?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Or is it the top 64 on the list, regardless of Division they competed in?

Thanks again.

Top 64 regardless of division with the calculation being:

Your Final Match Score/1st Place Match Score in Your Division (With a base of 100%)

(Using your best 3 match scores)

Great info - thanks!

[Outsydlooknin75]

So did the Ladies National Champ get an invite?

[Howard762]

"Did you even read the above posts containing the information that there will be a path through the Divisional races as well, or do you just want to continue believing your false assumption, factual information be damned?"

Just found this little bit of info:

QUESTION: How will the quailfying work to get into the Pro Series for next year? What matches should we make sure and sign up for to be eligible? ANSWER: The Bottom 25% from this season will lose their Pro Tour Card, and we will hold a 1-Time qualifying match at the beginning of the 2013 season that is open to the public and the bottom 25%. Bring your A-Game, take one of those slots and shoot as a 3GN Pro in 2013.

David E.

Here's where we got the idea that you would have one chance in the beginning of the 2013 season to get a Pro card. On this thread.

[djeffers]

Deleted!

Edited January 30, 2012 by djeffers

[outerlimits]

So did the Ladies National Champ get an invite?

NFW!!

[Chuck Anderson]

So did the Ladies National Champ get an invite?

If you're referring to multi time and current ladies Open National Champion, Kay Miculek, you bet she got an invite. She finished high enough in the standings. If you're referring to Katie Harris, not yet. She might get one. I know at least one (me) person had to pass on their invitation. I really wish I could play this year but my boss has me chained to the desk (both the one at work and the one at home) I will be shooting the qualifier match in 2013, and I will be getting my card next year though. And I'm perfectly fine with the process for getting on the tour they have outlined.

As far as the post about the number 64. Seems pretty fair to me. This is for the Pros, not the also rans. Sure there are 250 people at a normal 3 Gun match. Maybe 10 of them have a chance to WIN the match. At a match like the Pro-Am, maybe 20 (that was a deep pool in Tactical)

To the guy who insinuated that the Pro's will be sitting around having you fan them and bring them umbrellas drinks, in between shagging our brass and taping our targets. Thank you for bringing this issue to the fore front. First off, I think this is an excellent idea, long coming. I would very much like this. I'd prefer the bikini girls that Travis Gibson promised me last year for the MGM Ironman. Instead when I got there the only one in a dress was Outzen. (BTW, that was sarcasm, except Outzen in a dress) Unfortunately I'm pretty sure we'll have to live in the real world for the next several years. The one where some of those pros continue to be the hardest working guys in the sport. I'm thinking of Cramblitt putting on the Pro-Am, Kurt and Trapr putting on all their matches, Thacker and Hanish, the brains, well okay one of them at least, behind pushing 3GN to FNH. If I really wanted to I could go down the list, listing the accomplishments and efforts of at least half that final 64 field. But why bother, to quote Pete's Facebook, "Haters gonna hate."

Geez guys, give them a break, they are still starting out. They've only been at this for just over two years. People keep complaining at them for whatever they do. This seems like a really fair way to do it, meets their requirements, doesn't screw with the existing matches or other competitors, and gives an avenue to opt in or out. Sorry for the conspiracy theorists, but I don't see a way to do it otherwise.

Oh, and Craig, if you want to see some lazy guys sitting around doing nothing, just go to a World Shoot or other major IPSC (not USPSA) event. They won't let you tape your own targets. You really do have to sit around and watch other people do the work. It's the most frustrating thing.

[Charles Bond]

Well stated Chuck. What we are seeing is hopefully the start so something very good for our sport and as Chuck noted, there will be growing pains. But to do that there has to be some rules and organization and that 3GN elected to take the PGA type qualifier method is as fair to all as it can be.

[Corey]

I really like the idea of a qualifier match to get the tour card. Lets everyone who wants on the tour a chance to earn a spot run with the big boys. I wont be able to make many of the larger matches this year, but I'll certainly attend the qualifier match in early 2013!

[Nuke8401]

Just wondering how they will determine the 3GN Champion in 2012.

Will it be by shoot-off or overall standing? Or an award for both?

While Man on Man Shoot-offs are a great game and great TV, they are like deciding a champion based on one hole of golf, one set in tennis, one game in football, basket ball, etc.

David E.

[Chuck Anderson]

Just wondering how they will determine the 3GN Champion in 2012.

Will it be by shoot-off or overall standing? Or an award for both?

While Man on Man Shoot-offs are a great game and great TV, they are like deciding a champion based on one hole of golf, one set in tennis, one game in football, basket ball, etc.

David E.

Looks like roughly the same way they chose this year. They'll have the Divisional championship with top scores, by Division from a series of matches. One will be the tie breaker (I think FNH, but don't quote me). The 3GN Champion will be the winner of the shootoff in Vegas Jan 2013. I don't think anyone is saying that the winner is the king of 3 Gun. But that person will be the 3GN Champion.

[KTKlaus]

I see the reason behind what 3GN is trying to implement but I do have a few concerns that maybe addressed. I myself had been looking foward to participate in the 3GN tour but I have a very tight schedual that has to be planed to the second... with that comes the qualifier. (I still plan on attending the Divisional series and ARFCOM). Only having one may raise maybe a few gripes on attendance and availiability on time/dates. To not go into equipment failures/operator erros, etc. which primarily is situation awareness and pre maintance checks, comes things that no one has control over. To cover basics is being sick, family emergencies, etc, and in my case military commitments that supersedes anything preplaned and taking leave days for even at last minute. If someone has to register for ONE day and something comes up for just that ONE day, in theory, it ruins there chance to participate in the tour and then have to wait an entire year.

Next is location. Regardless if you have all the time in the world, money, sponsors, etc. some may not be able to drive/fly or have the avialable funds to make somethings that could be on the other side of the nation. Maybe having two to three to cover in case on any of said issues that may arise. Now I can see the arguments of some will shoot all of the qualifiers and may crowd registration (only allow to shoot one), equal and same stages and formats, bad/different weather, etc... you name it. No topic will ever go untouched without a counter point, and with that nothing I would like to see implemented can be perfect for every one.

With that said, and with many also stating that 3Gun is a growing sport, starting out with a really small selection and somewhat a sudden abrubt notice for this year does throw some into a rant (I myself would liked a heads up on the format change and not crush my spirts for this year). Well, I roll with the punches and deal. The fact that I dont have the opportunity to participate in one or the other based off something I had no control over from last year... not necessarily the subject matter but the principle... Well, Ill leave it at that.

Edited January 30, 2012 by KTKlaus

[Jesse Tischauser]

We know some people intentionally shot divisions with less competitors and less competition to earn more points

Which divisions would those be?

(Ones without top competitors)

Also, the number of competitors plays no part in ranking - it is the difference between 100% and the next person down.

I shot Open at FNH with half a$$ gear in order to get more points. I figured I could finish closer % wise to winner as compared to Tac Optics. I was right, it worked.

My FNH % was used in my final 3. Despite having never finished below 12th in Tac Optics all season. That includes a 5th place finish at USPSA Nationals and an 8th place finish at the Pro Am. I have not shot HM YET and no disrepect to the competitiors that do but I would bet $ that I can get more points there too.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

What I dont understand is why is the line so low 64? How did this magic number get picked? I can see this in some of the other shooting sports where the stages and range restrictions dont allow this. But 3 gun matches can run 200-250 people thru a weekend. If you want to cut it down some then you can run 125 shooters at invitational and still accomplish the same thing.

We jut shot a 4 stage match with 60 competitors yesterday in Fort Smith Arkansas. (biggest club level match I have ever been too BTW!!!) My longest stage was 39 seconds. The match took 6 1/2 hours to shoot. If you want to run 6 stages in one day you can't have 125 shooters. Why only one day? Cost! Simple as that. It cost all of a lot a money and time off work to shoot a 3 day match. If we want to participate in the 3GN series and not have to miss the other 15 or so major matches its gotta be small and fast and relatively inexpensive to do for everyone involved. I was told that the 3GN series matches are going to be located within an hour of a major airport so airfare and travel expenses can be kept to a minimum. I thought it was a great idea. I'd rather have my $ going to more ammo.

[Charles Bond]

I see the reason behind what 3GN is trying to implement but I do have a few concerns that maybe addressed. I myself had been looking foward to participate in the 3GN tour but I have a very tight schedual that has to be planed to the second... with that comes the qualifier. (I still plan on attending the Divisional series and ARFCOM). Only having one may raise maybe a few gripes on attendance and availiability on time/dates. To not go into equipment failures/operator erros, etc. which primarily is situation awareness and pre maintance checks, comes things that no one has control over. To cover basics is being sick, family emergencies, etc, and in my case military commitments that supersedes anything preplaned and taking leave days for even at last minute. If someone has to register for ONE day and something comes up for just that ONE day, in theory, it ruins there chance to participate in the tour and then have to wait an entire year.

Next is location. Regardless if you have all the time in the world, money, sponsors, etc. some may not be able to drive/fly or have the avialable funds to make somethings that could be on the other side of the nation. Maybe having two to three to cover in case on any of said issues that may arise. Now I can see the arguments of some will shoot all of the qualifiers and may crowd registration (only allow to shoot one), equal and same stages and formats, bad/different weather, etc... you name it. No topic will ever go untouched without a counter point, and with that nothing I would like to see implemented can be perfect for every one.

With that said, and with many also stating that 3Gun is a growing sport, starting out with a really small selection and somewhat a sudden abrubt notice for this year does throw some into a rant (I myself would liked a heads up on the format change and not crush my spirts for this year). Well, I roll with the punches and deal. The fact that I dont have the opportunity to participate in one or the other based off something I had no control over from last year... not necessarily the subject matter but the principle... Well, Ill leave it at that.

We have to be realistic as to why this program exists and that is that it drives a tv show. If they find that there is market out there for more air time, I would imagine they might have something of a playoff system or 2 our of 3 or something to give them more footage. But the bottom line is that this sponsor must have something for their funds and that is air time. There is not a thing in the world wrong with that.

[jdknotts1]

So what happens when I shoot at one of the "pro" matches? Am I not considered for the prize table? No matter how well I do, I will not be able to got to the shoot off at the end? Am I even allowed to shoot one of the pro matches for shites and giggles?

I'm not quite concerned about Florida shoots. I would just like to shoot at Peacemaker again this year. It's the closest match to me and I'll be bummed if it's only for exclusive club members that I'm not a part of

Edited January 30, 2012 by jdknotts1

[J.Schmitt]

Good point Charles, and if the air time fails the current format of 3 Gun Nation may as well. It is entertainment based after all.

Sound like some people are not happy they didn't get the invite. I look at it this way. How many can actually pull a top 3 performance for the big money. Top 20, and I bet we can name them. For the others what do you have. You have 500 dollars for basically two matches, a minimum of 150 per match in hotel if you share a room, 400 minimum per match in airfare unless you live close to Georgia or Florida. So for the first 2 matches you have 1600 dollars in expenses before ammo and food and everything else. Unless you have sponsors picking up the tab.

There don't appear to be prizes at these so there is no offset in cost unless you are top 3.

If this card is so valuable to some, what is it worth, I might just attend the first match and sell it as memorabilia to fund my attendance to other matches and buy ammo. Otherwise, I don't see myself attending. While I would like to participate it is too much of financial commitment. Plus I would have to pull my irons off and slap on a scope, that does not appeal to me at this moment.

Jay

[KTKlaus]

We have to be realistic as to why this program exists and that is that it drives a tv show. If they find that there is market out there for more air time, I would imagine they might have something of a playoff system or 2 our of 3 or something to give them more footage. But the bottom line is that this sponsor must have something for their funds and that is air time. There is not a thing in the world wrong with that.

Oh dont get me wrong, I agree entirely. I just had concerns as I just want to do it as it gives me a drive/end goal other than something set upon myself. But with that is a good point that is stated above. Some people have heard the saying that people will always believe that what they see on TV is true/fact/law/etc (depending how people have heard it). Well, in stating that, if people who are getting into 3Gun, do so by the only exposure via the show well they may be in for a surprise.

With this format change and only airing the PRO series, thats all that new people will see. Lets say Mr. Joe Smuckatelli watches 3GN and decides he wants to shoot the same matches, the format, etc. (and face it, many people are lazy and dont take the time to do the research), he will find that doing so initially is out of his grasp. This leads to the F'it mindset and leads to nothing as the show is his only exposure into bigger than local match shooting. Some will actually put the midset forward and tell themselves they will try to get better and get there, but most will probably not as people are in the sooner than later ideal. To some this maybe a good thing as they may not want them around in the first place. Well some wont because they just can't, as stated by people declining thier invatiations. I'll give it a shot for 2013, but I can't say I can make it all they way as I may deploy at any given time. Even if I missed a few months of competition, I could still attempt to make it up at the later end of the divisional series but could be done with the PRO.

The old format allowed the amatuers and pros to compete side by side, allow the underdog/dark horse idea. To me thats exciting. It gives a midset to compete harder and more motivation to the new shooter and may put some Pros on edge saying to themsleves "who the hell just kicked my arse" and "He's pretty good, I have to keep my eye on him". The way I see it, the new format will not, for a few reason people have already stated. A saying I use to take very seriously via mulitple individual sport is that a Pros worst fear is not the people he knows, but the people he doesn't.

The show really truly does NOT show the, what I like to call, the work-up. That said work-up for the original format was that there wasnt one. I have 10 events, I need to complete at least 3. Thats a larger margin of error to make up and a larger pool of competitors and all I need to do is sign-up, show up and shoot. I understand there is an equipment division and see the point of the divisional series but if this TV show just shows PRO and just dabbles in the divisional race, thats all that person will care about. Break down the new format its 1/1 one time shot, then based on that, 3/5 to make.

All this boils down to what new people may view as the norm. For those of us who have followed the show/followed the series know this is not true. But my concern is not for myself, but for others, and unfortunatly if they dont take the time to read and research, thier ignorance (no one here is ignorant, just knowing about it and discussing it proves other wise ). It is a TV show, but even some publicity may not be good publicity, even if they are trying to promote the sport.

Sound like some people are not happy they didn't get the invite.

As far as the invite in concerned, IDC, I was deployed in 2011 and didn't participate in 3GN, so I cant get pissed for an invite I dont have any right to say I should get one. In that, kind of bummed I dont have shot for 2012 series which I was hoping to attemped at with the old format.

Edited January 30, 2012 by KTKlaus

[mike cyrwus]

I didnt realize that all it would have took to be a pro was to shoot tac irons at the matches I shot Tac optics last year. Silly me!

Actually, I only shot two qualifying events.

thats alright; I have a face for radio, not cable tv.

and I still might be a pro; depending on how many folks decide they cant afford airfare to FL/Ga.

and as a backup to the backup; I know the 3G mayor, I might just show up with one of those big-ass gold keys of his.

[Jadeslade]

Look how fast DPMS match-long regarded as one of the best around stopped when DPMS was sold. 3GN may go bust. I hope it doesn't .There is nothing predictable in any of this. I think if any good shooter wanted to compete, they could quit their job, practice all the time, and start finishing top 5 in any match. There is a reason that Daniel Horner, Taran Butler, Jerry Miculek, Mike Voight, and a few others continually finish high or win. They have practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced some more. They have home ranges they can practice on, with equipment to practice on, and unlimited ammo. But they have earned that. A lot of blood and sweat has gone into their achievements. As Charles said, it is for profit and for TV. I think this conflicts with some other people's mission. That's why you won't see 3GN at SMM3G, and probably not at Rocky Mountain. These are volunteer run operations, and it is a lot of work. I think that is what might be rubbing some people the wrong way-why should some people make money off my volunteer work? Probably they shouldn't, but even PGA matches use volunteers. The NFL uses part time referees for a billion dollar business-obviously that is going to change. I personally like Pete, Chad and Rob Romero, who is now "Director of Competition" for 3GN. Rob is a great pistol shooter and 3Gun competitor and a great, fun guy to shoot a match with. I refuse to believe that these guys don't have the furtherance of the sport and shooting sports in general on their minds. A couple of them have a lot of money invested in this venture. The TV show has been the problem, I think, because it doesn't really work. I am not a TV producer, but I am great consumer of sporting events.

I would hope that someone who finishes in the top ten at a major match would be invited to participate in 3GN, because money is a major issue for shooters. There is a young guy in Arizona who could win any match in 3Gun, but only shoots locally, primarily for financial and personal reasons. One qualifying match is not going to work and I am sure that will be looked at. It should. Because everyone wants to compete against the best, right? There are ways to get into NASCAR, the PGA, Pro Bowling tour, etc. They don't hinge on one match, or race, and the money is way bigger. From the TV aspect, Top Shot had potential-but have you ever met a Hollywood TV producer? I hope that doesn't happen to 3GN. I think Rob has a strong enough personality and enough respect in the shooting community. I am glad he stepped up. So I don't think he will let garbage transpire. There are really good TV shows on shooting. Jim Scoutten at Shooting USA is one example. Jessie's show about Friends of the NRA is a really good show. These shows are not competition events, but they are positive for us all and give great positive information and do a lot for the shooting sports.

What i see that is really encouraging, is the proliferation of more local and state events in 3 Gun shooting. This is our real future and I hope that USPSA starts working to bring all the matches in line as far as scoring and target mixes. The Multigun Addendum rules were a great help. My first 3 Gun match was at Superstition (based on what Matt Burkett said in his videos) and I shot it with an M4 with a Ta01NSN, a Remington 1100, and my GLock 34. I didn't know anybody and was squadded with Pat Kelley, Denise and JJ, Carl Carbon, and some others. All were way better than me. Pat was great, Denise showed me weak hand loading, and I made it through the match. They all encouraged me and I fell in love with 3 Gun. So all you 3 gunners get working, stop lasering me when I get out of my car for a stage, and work on your gun handling. And I want 3 Gun Nation to become more popular than the Pro Bowling Series, because I can't bowl. If it does, you will have these people to thank for contributing to the sport. DVC

[sschultz]

The DPMS match had to shut down because of a conditional use permit issue. It had nothing to do with DPMS being sold.

Schultz