Chuck Anderson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Chuck, are there stats readily avail about the number of USPSA members by region, or by state? Ie BAN States vs Free America? The numbers are available, I just don't know how easy to read they would be. Each AD gets a printout quarterly of all mission count submitted in his area. It's all broken down by match venue, date and Division. I know the main office has the data, I just don't know if it's searchable, or if it would be worth the effort to collate. I'm pretty sure the folks that want 15 rounds wouldn't be convinced if every person in every ban state shot Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 How is having Limited 10 a problem in Texas or in Florida? So why would Open 10 be? The problem is many people worked very hard to get the AWB removed, It was one of the few victories that gun owners got. I see it as nothing more than spitting in the face of the gun lobby by keeping the same arbitrary restriction. Whhuu Wait! WHAT!? If my memory serves, the AWB had its own built in sunset provision, which it did without so much as a whimper in 2004, 10 years after its passing and signing into law by Bill Clinton in 1994. I'm sorry...pardon my ignorance, but what exactly did the NRA or other pro-gun lobbies do leading up to the sunsetting in 2004? It's been 7 years since that happened so you'll have to refresh my memory. Wasn't there either an election in 94 or 96 that sent a very clear signal to a particular party that how they voted back in 1994 on the AWB wasn't going to be tolerate? If the gun lobby is so gung ho to take credit for anything, why wasn't the AWB overturned before its sunsetting in 2004? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Why do we need to grow USPSA? Does something magical happen when we hit 25,000 members? 30,000? Because, in case you haven't been to a Nationals lately, a lot of our members, in particular RO's, are freaking old (Yes I'm calling you out Carraher!) Members come, they leave. Some stay for a couple matches, some stay a lifetime. But unless we're continually bringing in new members we're going to fade away. Look at NRA Action Pistol and the Bianchi Cup and tell me they don't need more members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 How is having Limited 10 a problem in Texas or in Florida? So why would Open 10 be? The problem is many people worked very hard to get the AWB removed, It was one of the few victories that gun owners got. I see it as nothing more than spitting in the face of the gun lobby by keeping the same arbitrary restriction. Done, I'll propose we reduce the capacity in Production to 9 rounds at the very next BOD meeting. That way it's not the evil number 10 and we don't lose any guns. Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 If my memory serves, the AWB had its own built in sunset provision, which it did without so much as a whimper in 2004, 10 years after its passing and signing into law by Bill Clinton in 1994. I'm sorry...pardon my ignorance, but what exactly did the NRA or other pro-gun lobbies do leading up to the sunsetting in 2004? It didn't just go away with a whimper and there have been several attempts to have it re-instated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Whhuu Wait! WHAT!? If my memory serves, the AWB had its own built in sunset provision, which it did without so much as a whimper in 2004, 10 years after its passing and signing into law by Bill Clinton in 1994. I'm sorry...pardon my ignorance, but what exactly did the NRA or other pro-gun lobbies do leading up to the sunsetting in 2004? It's been 7 years since that happened so you'll have to refresh my memory. Wasn't there either an election in 94 or 96 that sent a very clear signal to a particular party that how they voted back in 1994 on the AWB wasn't going to be tolerate? If the gun lobby is so gung ho to take credit for anything, why wasn't the AWB overturned before its sunsetting in 2004? And that's more than enough on the political front (Brad, passion not withstanding, you know better....). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Done, I'll propose we reduce the capacity in Production to 9 rounds at the very next BOD meeting. That way it's not the evil number 10 and we don't lose any guns. Happy? I hope that your attempt at humor and not that you aren't understanding the point of useless restrictions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Why do we need to grow USPSA? Does something magical happen when we hit 25,000 members? 30,000? Because, in case you haven't been to a Nationals lately, a lot of our members, in particular RO's, are freaking old (Yes I'm calling you out Carraher!) Members come, they leave. Some stay for a couple matches, some stay a lifetime. But unless we're continually bringing in new members we're going to fade away. Look at NRA Action Pistol and the Bianchi Cup and tell me they don't need more members. This is what I have gathered from seeing the pics and videos of all the Nat's...I see a lot of gray hair, yes, yes I do. To me, at least, that implies that all or most of the RO's and other staff are retired (from days back when companies could actually afford to pay into their employees's pension plans). I get paid by the hour. I can't afford to take off for a whole week to go "clipboard commando" some major match. Heck, I probably can't afford to take off just to shoot the match either, but I sometimes do anyway. Consequently, I don't see anything financially redeeming about going on to become a CRO or a Range Master. Sorry, man, I hope I don't seem too caught up on money, it's just the cold hard and cruel financial facts of the matter for me. And I am guessing a lot of other shooters are in the same boat too. On a different note, I work closely with a guy who is basically a CAS promoter. He said to me that easily 75% of the SASS members are retired. Kids out of the house? Yep! Mortgage paid off? Yep! Drawing a pension/social security/401K/Roth? Yep! Some disposable income to spend on some toys/hobby? Yep! In search of some social gathering/interaction? Yep! So you can see now why CAS continues to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Because, in case you haven't been to a Nationals lately, a lot of our members, in particular RO's, are freaking old.... Oh. My. Lord. That's probably worthy of a new thread so I can agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Whhuu Wait! WHAT!? If my memory serves, the AWB had its own built in sunset provision, which it did without so much as a whimper in 2004, 10 years after its passing and signing into law by Bill Clinton in 1994. I'm sorry...pardon my ignorance, but what exactly did the NRA or other pro-gun lobbies do leading up to the sunsetting in 2004? It's been 7 years since that happened so you'll have to refresh my memory. Wasn't there either an election in 94 or 96 that sent a very clear signal to a particular party that how they voted back in 1994 on the AWB wasn't going to be tolerate? If the gun lobby is so gung ho to take credit for anything, why wasn't the AWB overturned before its sunsetting in 2004? And that's more than enough on the political front (Brad, passion not withstanding, you know better....). whoops! sorry! I wasn't trying to dredge up politics, but rather just a recitation of history as I understand it to be.....moving along now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 And that's more than enough on the political front (Brad, passion not withstanding, you know better....). whoops! sorry! I wasn't trying to dredge up politics, but rather just a recitation of history as I understand it to be.....moving along now..... Cool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Instead of constantly arguing about one-size-fits-all rules that may or may not work depending on your point of view, how about Areas can petition USPSA to hold an official 'Demo Division' at their Area or Sectional matches. They can make the equipment rules whatever they like, and we'll see how they work out (naturally they'd need to have sufficient competitors to 'make' for prizes/awards/etc) . If one gets so popular that people get into fights about who gets to hold the next Zooper Demo Division match, then USPSA can look at making the division official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) I shoot Limited minor with a Beretta 9mm. Do I fault the guys who have some sort of .40 cal major PF'ed "racegun" built? NOPE! Splitting Limited into two divisions and segregating the major guys from the minor guys is just....well...dumb! As the current USPSA rules are set up with just having 8 shots fired from one array/position, I am confused with what having a production gun holding 15+1 rounds will do for you. ASSuming your first array is 8 rounds, and you have to make up a shot or two, you're still faced with reloading between the first and second array unless you want to do a standing reload right in the middle of the second array. That is, of course, ASSuming that each array is maxed out at 8 rounds, each. You're still back to that old Production and Single Stack mantra of "if you're moving, you're reloading!" Sooooooo...leave Production as it is, 10 rounds. I'm with Barry Bean on this: if it ain't broke, don't fix it! On a different note, as a MD, a fairly new one at that, it seems like I/we spend an inordinate amount of time trying our best to abide by the 8 round per array rule, and moving targets around to avoid shoot throughs. Yeah, maybe...kinda...sorta... I am wishing maybe for a Level I exemption to the 8 round per array rule. Not that I think it should mean that MD's and stage designers are carte blanche to have 13 plus round arrays and push the limits of a new "rule". Or maybe I should just stop whining and browse stageexchange.com a bunch before our first real match in April. (shrugs shoulders) Edited December 7, 2011 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Another vote for open revolver. ICORE and SC shooters have these guns laying around waiting for another place to use them. Not a huge number of people granted but is it smart to turn anyone away? Also someone wanted an example of a gun that letting production go to 15 rounds would make it obsolete. HK P7 Back in the mid 90's I used one of these in the 13 shot version to make A class limited (only had open and limited back then)shooting minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I want a single shot zip gun division.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I wanna old, fat, bald, beared division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I want a Hot Chicks in Tiny Bikini Division. That oughta bring in a few new shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I want a Hot Chicks in Tiny Bikini Division. That oughta bring in a few new shooters. Well you know USPSA is all about compromise. You can have the Tiny Bikini Division but we decided to combine it with Mark's to get participation up. Now it's the old, fat, bald, beared tiny bikini division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I want a Hot Chicks in Tiny Bikini Division. That oughta bring in a few new shooters. Well you know USPSA is all about compromise. You can have the Tiny Bikini Division but we decided to combine it with Mark's to get participation up. Now it's the old, fat, bald, beared tiny bikini division. Oooph! Not good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I want a Hot Chicks in Tiny Bikini Division. That oughta bring in a few new shooters. Well you know USPSA is all about compromise. You can have the Tiny Bikini Division but we decided to combine it with Mark's to get participation up. Now it's the old, fat, bald, beared tiny bikini division. Oooph! Not good... That's exactly what happens when you leave things up to design by committee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I want a Hot Chicks in Tiny Bikini Division. That oughta bring in a few new shooters. Well you know USPSA is all about compromise. You can have the Tiny Bikini Division but we decided to combine it with Mark's to get participation up. Now it's the old, fat, bald, beared tiny bikini division. Oooph! Not good... That's exactly what happens when you leave things up to design by committee :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Pardon me if this is a stupid idea, but how about a provision that simple states the following (or something similar): Magazine capacity of all divisions is to be officially capped at the maximum legal magazine capacity for new magazines in the jurisdiction in which the match is being held (NOTE: If a division limit is explicitly stated already, then the smaller of the two limits takes precedent). That would remove the need to create any NEW divisions, and would level the playing field in states unfortunate enough to have magazine restrictions. Realistically its not fair that Open shooters in California who may have been minors when the mag cap law was enacted have to compete against people who have magazines stored up from years prior that are high cap. The same rule also puts strain on people to stick with a particular gun that they had back then rather than upgrade because they might not have high cap mags for the new gun they'd like to shoot. So in California for example, even higher cap mags would be limited to 10 rounds. In New Jersey, 15 rounds max in every division (except Production, Single Stack, Revolver, and Limited 10 which are already capped lower). In Maryland, no more than 20 (same as above re: Production, L-10, SS, Revo). You get the idea - regardless of if you had legal hi caps that were grandfathered in those states, you'd have to download to those capacities. I know it would bite for the people that do have those grandfathered mags in those locales, but realistically the farther we get away from the date when such laws were passed the more unfair use of such magazines becomes in competition. Not a perfect solution, but like I said it keeps the playing field level without the need for creation of new divisions that complicate the scene in other locations. With this provision we could even merge Limited and Limited-10 if desired (since Limited would BE Limited-10 in states with mag-cap laws), though I'm not really adamant about that one way or another. Edited December 7, 2011 by MGMorden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 That only works for competitions in state. What happens when the CA resident decides to shoot his Area match in AZ or Nats in Vegas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) That only works for competitions in state. What happens when the CA resident decides to shoot his Area match in AZ or Nats in Vegas? Keep a collection of hi cap mags in a safety deposit box across the border to use while out of state? Should be legal as long as you don't import them. Not really an optimal solution I know, but the varying state laws really do make a mess of trying to make it work. Just brainstorming though. I shoot production (and don't mind the 10 round limit) and live in a no-restriction state. I just know that I can sympathize with them: I didn't purchase my first handgun until 2002 and thankfully the AWB ran out so I could get hi-caps later, but I don't think I'd ever even think about shooting Open for example if I had to run against people who had 25+ round mags saved up when I couldn't legally get anything higher than 10. Edited December 7, 2011 by MGMorden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maksim Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 once again though, what is the problem with having another division, which would not have negative impacts, in most cases, if any? Even for a trial run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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