FTDR: can it be issued for ignoring cover?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

The few times I've shot IDPA, I tried to follow the rules but failed pretty badly due to long-ingrained USPSA habits. As a non-IDPA guy, a lot of the "cover" calls seem pretty dang subjective and appear to vary widely from SO to SO. Just not my cup of tea.

That said, I did show up to a couple matches with a Limited pistol that wouldn't fit into the IDPA box - the MD still let me shoot the match, but not for score. It seemed to work out OK - I got some trigger time, the IPDA club got some cash, and everyone was happy.

[freeidaho]

...but I cannot in good conscious partake of the "us v. them" mentality

Cy,

For me at least this is not an us vs them, but this always gets brought up. To me it wouldn't matter if they were Cowboy Action shooters, GSSF champions, or Bullseye guys. If you come to an IDPA match, shoot IDPA to the best of your ability. If you go to a GSSF match, shoot GSSF to the best of your ability. And for me, that is the deal breaker. Not even trying is completely unacceptable. Imagine a tactical ninja coming to your match and shooting one round every minute, belly crawling between shooting positions, and taking an unreasonable amount of time to complete every stage. Now imagine a dozen of these guys at your match, delaying the match 20 minutes per shooter per stage. Yeah, you will start combing the rulebook for some reason to curb this behavior. Your "can't we all just get along" mentality will be different when it is your match that is screwed up by someone not caring at all what the match is about.

Ken Reed

[IronEqualizer]

...but I cannot in good conscious partake of the "us v. them" mentality

Cy,

For me at least this is not an us vs them, but this always gets brought up. To me it wouldn't matter if they were Cowboy Action shooters, GSSF champions, or Bullseye guys. If you come to an IDPA match, shoot IDPA to the best of your ability. If you go to a GSSF match, shoot GSSF to the best of your ability. And for me, that is the deal breaker. Not even trying is completely unacceptable. Imagine a tactical ninja coming to your match and shooting one round every minute, belly crawling between shooting positions, and taking an unreasonable amount of time to complete every stage. Now imagine a dozen of these guys at your match, delaying the match 20 minutes per shooter per stage. Yeah, you will start combing the rulebook for some reason to curb this behavior. Your "can't we all just get along" mentality will be different when it is your match that is screwed up by someone not caring at all what the match is about.

Ken Reed

+1 Nicely put.

[GOF]

Another +1 to Ken Reed's post. If you are a guest in someone's home you don't poop on their carpet and laugh at them when they get upset. If you go to shoot another sport, you may not know all the rules, but you respect their sport and at least make an attempt to play by their rules. To tell them that you don't care about their rules and will do what you want is very unsportsmanlike... and IDPA does have provisions for DQing people for unsportsmanlike conduct.

GOF -- Classified shooter and member/ IDPA & USPSA.

[Tarkeg]

Another thumbs up to Ken's post. I don't understand why so many folks believe it's O.K. to participate in a particular sport, but not play by the rules of that sport. "Coming from another game" has nothing to do with it. It also has nothing to do with an "us vs. them" mentality. Would these same people decide to play baseball with a certain team, but when they show up they say, "I'm going to use a golf club instead of a bat, cause that's how I roll". "I'm also going to run clockwise around the bases, 'cause that's how I do it where I come from".

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you want to shoot that way, great. Go shoot in a sport that allows that in their rules. If no one does, create it yourself. Come up with your own rules, safety procedures, equipment requirements, everything. Publish your rulebook and take it to the BOD of the club you want to shoot at. Present your new sport to the BOD and convince them to allow your sport at their club. Then run the matches yourself. See? Easy.

What you can't do is use IDPA's reputation, rulebook, safety procedures and safety record to create a match and then throw away the rules, or only enforce the ones you choose.

[buddy_fuentes]

Any game you play has some rules that must be followed. You either play by the rules or you are penalized for the failure to do so. The only other choice is to not play. IDPA and USPSA are games and we must follow the rules to play.

Buddy

[waktasz]

If someone wants to come to an IDPA match and shoot USPSA style why should we care? There are penalties in the rulebook for not following COF rules, cover rules, reload rules, etc. Apply them to his score as needed and when he realizes his score is triple that of the lowest MM shooter maybe he will change his tactics.

As long as someone is being safe, apply the proper penalties as needed and move along.

[Chuck Anderson]

My boss has a saying, you can do whatever you want, just be willing to face the consequences. If I show up at an IDPA match I intend to follow most of the rules. When I shoot IDPA it's for practice for something else. There are certain rules in IDPA that drive me nuts, stuff we try to pound out of our students on the range (i.e. retaining empty magazines, running to cover with an empty gun rather than loading it while moving, etc.) I try to put myself in, "game mode" when I shoot competition, but it's harder with IDPA since there is the facade of being more "tactical". I try to retain my empty mags, I try to run up to 4 feet from the target, then reload. However there are times when that training kicks in and that empty mag hits the deck. I'll take my penalty. I understand it and I'm not about to complain about it. It's the rules. That said if someone is deliberately violating the rules, cover as the OP mentioned, PE, FTDR, DQ. It's not fair to the other competitors to have some shooters follow the rules and others not.

And since it seems to be a requirement, yes I am an IDPA member. Started in 1996, let it lapse when the local clubs shut down and I couldn't find a range within 4 hours to shoot IDPA at. Re-upped a couple years ago.

[Jim Watson]

Then there is the "I'm too tactical to follow silly competition rules, so I will shoot it like the Acme Gunfighting Academy says and "take the procedural". " type.

Uh, no. Not on my field.

You get a FTDR the first time for willfully not following the rules.

If you still want the trigger time the next shoot, you get to shoot for no score, no record.

If you complain about that, you get disinvited.

[GForceLizard]

In addition to all that has been stated before. Depending on the actual situation I would consider letting them shoot the match with all the PEs and publishing the results with a DQ and no times.

[waktasz]

Why not just publish their total time with all the penalties? Issuing the DQ after the fact is sort of shady.

[GForceLizard]

Why not just publish their total time with all the penalties? Issuing the DQ after the fact is sort of shady.

Again, depending on how things are running. Let them know they can shoot but no scores will be published. If they are trying to follow the rules NP, PEs and publish scores. If they are saying screw the rules, something more may be needed.

[Steve Koski]

Why would an IDPA member show up and behave like this? It just doesn't make sense.

Koski

[racerba]

I was an IDPA member before anybody asks. I let it lapse because i didn't shoot it much. I don't like most of the rules since a lot of the riles are (as some said before) subjective depending on the SO. One SO can say it's OK while another SO will say the same action is an FTDR. However, when I do shoot IDPA, i try to follow the rules. As Chuck said, sometimes I forget and do something against the rules. That's fine, give me the penalty as required. I do not break the rules intentionally nor do I scoff at them. I thought IDPA wasn't a game and there are not supposed to be winners or losers anyway...?!?!?!

[racerba]

Issuing the DQ after the fact is sort of shady.

I seem to recall somebody was DQed after a major match. Seems that the SO talked about it and call him up (he already left the range) to tell him he was DQed...

[IronEqualizer]

If someone wants to come to an IDPA match and shoot USPSA style why should we care? There are penalties in the rulebook for not following COF rules, cover rules, reload rules, etc. Apply them to his score as needed and when he realizes his score is triple that of the lowest MM shooter maybe he will change his tactics.

As long as someone is being safe, apply the proper penalties as needed and move along.

Sometimes the proper penalty is a DQ.

[Steve Koski]

If you were and IDPA member and your membership has lapsed, then presumably you've shot at least one match. Before you can shoot another match you need to renew your IDPA membership. If you're not willing to renew your membership and follow that rule, then you shouldn't go to IDPA matches at all.

[GmanCdp]

Just my thoughts: but, I would have awarded a PE for the first cover violation and explained to them why. A second PE for the second violation, and another conversation. If, during that conversation, they, basically told me "We don't care about the Rules we are just here to shoot... OK, an FTDR for each subsequent violation.

If they object to those 20 second dings... then a DQ. If they have been told, and say "Screw your rules" the DQ is warranted.

+1..with all the replys from [not] an IDPA member, this should apply to the topic here also..

note:http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91622

Edited November 29, 2011 by GmanCdp

[Ahab]

As I understand it, there are two different actions being discussed.

Example A: USPSA Shooter comes to IDPA match, ignores cover on a couple of stages because he's not used to using it. Issued a PE and warned, and he then makes an effort to use cover. I wouldn't issue an FTDR if he forgot about cover again, just another PE.

Example B: USPSA Shooter comes to a match, ignores cover, gets issued PEs and warned, and continues to ignore cover because he just doesn't care. I'd issue an FTDR for that, and I've NEVER issued an FTDR in five years of doing this. While I don't believe that we can read shooter's minds and determine intent, actions go a long towards to making intent obvious.

In Example B, I'd imagine a shooter just blatantly ignoring the rules after having them explained would be a perfect example of an FTDR situation.

[GOF]

Just a thought, and I could be wrong -- but it seems to me that the majority of those supporting poor behavior at an IDPA match are non-IDPA members who see a range, and targets, and say "It's just trigger time, screw their Rules". That's not right. If I showed up at a SASS (Cowboy Action Shooting) match with my current IDPA/USPSA/Multi-Gun gear and said "It's just trigger time, I paid my match fee, screw your Rules"... I would EXPECT to be DQed!

If you go to someone's home as a guest, you don't cr@p on their living room carpet and then tell them "Screw your Rules" when they get upset. That is EXTREMELY POOR BEHAVIOR. And, being "disinvited" would be a logical response.

[racerba]

...but it seems to me that the majority of those supporting poor behavior at an IDPA match are non-IDPA members

I don't see the majority supporting poor behavior...

[lugnut]

I know plenty of people that shoot other action shooting sports.

There are some that choose not to engage in IDPA because of the rules- I can respect that.

There are some that want good trigger time and engage in IDPA and try to adhere to the rules, sometimes making mistakes- I can respect that.

There are some that go to IPDA matches just to mock the sport- that is unacceptable.

What would I do in the OP's situation? I'd probably let them shoot the day, allowing them to earn every procedural they want. Then politely tell them I'd prefer them to not show up again if they planned on mocking the sport.

FTDR, DQ... maybe. Clearly that behavior is unsportsman-like, no question. As an SO we try to anticipate where to be relative to a shooter... it's our responsiblity to not interfere. If a shooter intentionally ran a COF in such a way to distract or otherwise confuse the SO I'd be inclined to ask them to leave for the day.

My 2 cents.

[sperman]

If the shooter doesn't care about the 5 seconds for the PE, they probably aren't going to care about the 20 seconds for the FTDR.

[waktasz]

3 seconds per PE

[Bear23]

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

IDPA doesn't get a mission count i.e. USPSA so why should that matter.

As far as the shooter in question, issue penalties, tell him why he got them. Don't sneak them on the scorecard and be a pussy, talk to the guy. If he still remains an ass, don't invite him back.

I remember not too long ago, i shot an IDPA match at a club about 45 miles away. I earned a NFS, (not for score) seems my safariland 586 pouch holster with safariland belt didn't pass someones muster, they never even spoke to me about it. The closest shooter was 20 seconds behind me, that might have had something to do with it as well.

RM