PF v speed- That big a difference?

[Racer377]

This past weekend, I shot a match using a G17 with some relatively soft shooting 8mm. 129PF, to be exact. Prior to this, I used an M&P357 shooting full on 357 sig at 169PF. Obviously, recoil was greatly diminished.

The weird thing was, I didn't shoot any faster! I would've expected a big difference, but none materialized. I'm a 52ish% C, (with the 357 anyway) for whatever that's worth. My theory is that I can't see fast enough to take advantage of the lower recoil.

Does shooting a major PF slow you down? What about 145 PF v. 130PF? Does anyone notice any quantifiable difference in their own shooting?

[Hi-Power Jack]

This past weekend, I shot a match using a G17 with some relatively soft shooting 8mm. 129PF, to be exact. Prior to this, I used an M&P357 shooting full on 357 sig at 169PF. Obviously, recoil was greatly diminished.

The weird thing was, I didn't shoot any faster!

I don't have an answer, but some things to think about:

1. two different guns - you may prefer one to the other

2. I would imagine (don't know for a fact) that increased recoil

is going to slow you down at least a little, if everything else

is equal. But, depends on your upper body strength/ techniques/

familiarity with the guns, etc.

I don't see any difference between pf 120 and 133 - feel exactly the

same to me.

But, going from 129 - 169 - that should slow me down a bit.

But, I'm only a B shooter - let's see what the M & GM's have to say.

Jack

[Merlin Orr]

If you have good technique and a good grip the added recoil may make the gun actually move back into alignment faster with the sharper recoil than with a slow/lazy movement you get from a really light recoiling load....

Some guys prefer the quicker and sharp recoil (mainly the more experienced shooters) and others (and nearly always- all of the newer shooters) like the minimum recoil you can find even at the expense of all else........

Pick your poison.

[Steve Anderson]

As you progress, you'll find that things like loads and springs matter less and less.

I don't want to give the idea that they aren't important, because they are to an extent.

When I shot Berettas in production, I used mousefart loads because the gun liked them and would run well. (very light slide, relatively heavy frame)

My XD likes a snappier load and needs more power to run well.

In your specific case, I would suggest that you shot the way you always shoot, and may not have been seeing enough to allow the differences to, uh, be seen.

And, two different guns makes the comparison almost pointless.

All that really matters is predictable sight lift and return. You'll never get in tune with it if you keep changing things.

And then one day none of it will matter much.

Just reread the original post, "My theory is that I can't see fast enough to take advantage of the lower recoil."

Exchange "can't" for "didn't" and remove the word "fast" and you're exactly right.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Steve Anderson

[raz-0]

This past weekend, I shot a match using a G17 with some relatively soft shooting 8mm. 129PF, to be exact. Prior to this, I used an M&P357 shooting full on 357 sig at 169PF. Obviously, recoil was greatly diminished.

The weird thing was, I didn't shoot any faster! I would've expected a big difference, but none materialized. I'm a 52ish% C, (with the 357 anyway) for whatever that's worth. My theory is that I can't see fast enough to take advantage of the lower recoil.

Does shooting a major PF slow you down? What about 145 PF v. 130PF? Does anyone notice any quantifiable difference in their own shooting?

If you are about a 52% C-class shooter, my guess is you could shoot significantly faster with the 9mm than the .357sig, and not notice it if your movement is slow or your stage breakdown is poor. Even on stand and shoot classifiers, if your reloads are not the same with both guns, you might not see the benefit if all you improved were your splits.

Also, if you always shot with .357 sig, one match is not enough for you to learn to use all the additional resources a more manageable load provides. When I switched form l-10 shooting .45 singlestack at 175pf to production shooting 132pf 9mm, all I got out of it for a while was a higher percentage of a-zone hits. When I did that I was about a 64% B-class shooter. It took a lot of practice to actually be able to move faster and then to improve my stage breakdown enough to be competitive with the people who I was keeping up with on stand and shoot classifiers. Minor PF loads did make it easier to focus on those things though IMO.

Some things make bigger dents than others. When I made the transition, I was seeing splits in the low to mid .3s and after a couple matches with 132pf, I was seeing splits in the mid to high .2s But lets just assume I was saving .1 per paper target. I also had decent reloads averaging about 1.5 second shot to shot.

But take a hypothetical course of 12 paper, 4 steel. Just moving to minor would get me 1.2 seconds on the stage. Making the decision to shoot 8 and reload in case you miss rather than committing to 10 shots, 10 hits can erase that and then some. Lets say you could take a long shot from the start, or go to an extra port on the left side of a 20 foot wide COF that you wouldn't have to do if you did. That can add 2+ seconds. Stopping, burying yourself in a port, and extracting yourself can burn several seconds compared to shooting through the port on the move. Heck, jsut learning to pick up the pace between shooting positions can save several seconds. So minor PF can get you 1.2 seconds. Better movement can pick you up 4 or 5.

Minor doesn't work miracles. For me it let me focus less on the gun and more on everything else though, which long term made a huge difference.

[BBoyle]

I can notice differences in loads at practice and also in how the gun reacts to them, ie slightly slower or faster slide speed and recovery along with the felt recoil, but with the pressure of a timer in a real match I do not see a difference at all between major and minor loads. I have had test ammo that was slightly sub major mixed with test ammo that was 175 pf ammo in the same magazine and couldnt tell a difference during a match.

I would agree with Steve that once you get to a certain place, calling shots all the time, it almost doesn't matter. Different platforms will be different though, in my opinion.

Brian

[Matt Griffin]

Shooting .45 major out of revolvers makes a G17 feel like a .22 when I switch, but I don't shoot it any faster. I'm usually waiting on the sights either way. I could probably do a Bill Drill faster with the 9mm with better hits simply by muscling the gun until it didn't move, but that ain't shooting.

Matt

[gb32]

The gun won't go any faster than you drive it.

[CocoBolo]

If you think you are confused get this.

On Saturday I shot my oldest and 2nd backup open gun and Won the match, falling steel, by 10 seconds over a GM, M, and other B's, the GM said I intimidated him. I was shooting Minor ammo, the whole time I was shooting I was kicking myself for not bringing major Ammo, the minor felt wierd and the gun felt slow. I attribute the win to effective movement not faster shooting, I won 3 of the 5 stages.

Sunday I shot another match USPSA, tuff one came out at my ususal 65%, 10th over all, shot my number one gun, 173pf ammo, it all felt good. In fact the gun seemed to have less recoil and flip, and I had the perception that my shooting was faster.

The guns are ugly twins, the major differece being the thumbrest, the winnier does not have one, go figure.

I think that you pull the trigger at the same speed regardless of the load until you progress. Most times changing guns even to one that you can shoot better you are immediately a bit slower then once you get use to it you speed up.

[Racer377]

Thanks for all the input! Good points raised that I hadn't thought about, or perhaps didn't weigh heavily enough.

I think I'll have to experiment with a 9mm M&P and some quality time with a timer to be able to draw any firm conclusions, as far as how much, if at all, minor PF will effect my speed at my current skill level.

In any case, it seems like the consensus is that ~125ish mousefart loads shouldn't be expected to shave huge amounts off one's split time. Now that I think about it, if minor was a big split booster, I'd think it would be a more popular choice in L/L10, no?

[Flexmoney]

Does shooting a major PF slow you down?

No, it never used to. I've been mostly shooting minor in Production for the last couple of years, though.

When I shot Major, with my (production legal) Glock 35... no loss of time for splits or transitions.

[BBoyle]

So that is how flex got his post count so high!

Racer,

The only way to know sure is to record standard drills in a journal/log and write what splits and transitions are for known targets at known differences. I know I shoot a 1911 a little faster than my G35 but the difference is only a few hundredths of a second. Like I said before, different platforms will give you different results.

As has been said thousands of time, pick one gun and just stick with it.

[Norther]

This summer, I shot a USPSA special classifier match. Our club allowed us to run the six stages with two guns, to get classified in two divisions. I shot identical XDm's in 9mm and .40, for Production and Limited. Being classifier stages (low round count), I don't recall the added mag capacity of Limited being a big help. The point is, my scores for the two were almost exactly identical. Guns identically set up, from the same holster and mag pouches. I do tend to shoot a lot of A's.

I went from C to B in both divisions that match.

[carlosa]

As you progress, you'll find that things like loads and springs matter less and less.

I don't want to give the idea that they aren't important, because they are to an extent.

When I shot Berettas in production, I used mousefart loads because the gun liked them and would run well. (very light slide, relatively heavy frame)

My XD likes a snappier load and needs more power to run well.

In your specific case, I would suggest that you shot the way you always shoot, and may not have been seeing enough to allow the differences to, uh, be seen.

And, two different guns makes the comparison almost pointless.

All that really matters is predictable sight lift and return. You'll never get in tune with it if you keep changing things.

And then one day none of it will matter much.

Just reread the original post, "My theory is that I can't see fast enough to take advantage of the lower recoil."

Exchange "can't" for "didn't" and remove the word "fast" and you're exactly right.

Steve I was thinking the same thing as I was reading the original post.. You articulated my same opinion better than I ever could have

Cheers!

[baa]

Does shooting a major PF slow you down?

No, it never used to. I've been mostly shooting minor in Production for the last couple of years, though.

When I shot Major, with my (production legal) Glock 35... no loss of time for splits or transitions.

+1... Shooting 9mm minor vs shooting .40 or .45 major. My split times and hits don't change at all. I did a "Pepsi" challenge a while back- I shot Bill drills using three different 1911 in:

9mm shooting 147 grain bullets @ 130 PF

.40 shooting 180 grain bullets @ 170 PF

.45 shooting 230 grain bullets @ 174 PF

All three of the 1911s are setup with basically the same trigger/grips/sights etc and all three weigh the same. My bill drill run times were almost exactly the same from caliber to caliber, averaging around 1.7-1.8 @ 7 yards. The .40 1911 felt the fastest and the 9mm felt the slowest, but the actual run times were the same. My best run during this drill was about 1.61 (5As 1C ) was with the .40. I am primarily a Limited shooter and use the exact same loads in my 2011 and my 1911, so I think I tend to shoot this load the best due to having shot a whole lot more .40 than any other caliber in the past few years.

My conclusion- Within reason, I don't think major/minor matters all that much from a split standpoint. Obviously comparing a .22 to a .44 would change this statement, but within the band of power we shoot for USPSA, I think other factors (mainly the shooter, not the gun) affect split times.

[benos]

I could shoot the same times on Steel Challenge stages with major loads in my IPSC Limited pistol as I could with weenie loads in my special Steel Challenge pistol. But I shot the weenie loads/gun in the match, because it felt easier.

be

[Frady]

*disclaimer* I'm a mediocre C shooter, so take what I say w/ a grain of salt

When I started reloading (from WWB) heavier bullets w/ faster powder (makes a lighter recoil) I could tell the difference, but just a bit. Last weekend I got a chance to shoot unexpectedly and didn't have time to load any ammo. Picked up a box of WWB and I could feel the difference immediately.

My point is that for me, moving from more to less recoil was not as noticeable as moving from less to more recoil.

YMMV

Edited November 9, 2011 by Frady

[Sin-ster]

*disclaimer* I'm a mediocre C shooter, so take what I say w/ a grain of salt

When I started reloading (from WWB) heavier bullets w/ faster powder (makes a lighter recoil) I could tell the difference, but just a bit. Last weekend I got a chance to shoot unexpectedly and didn't have time to load any ammo. Picked up a box of WWB and I could feel the difference immediately.

My point is that for me, moving from more to less recoil was not as noticeable as moving from less to more recoil.

YMMV

Whether you could feel it or not-- did you shoot as accurately and as quickly?

I don't think there's any question as to the difference in "feel", how high the sights lift, etc. It's more a matter of how hard it is to score good hits quickly.

At this juncture, I would raise the point of shooting from odd positions where your stance and such aren't at 100% capacity for managing the recoil. I shoot Minor exclusively in competition, but carry and train with Major (.45) a good bit. When I'm not completely static and set up, I definitely feel like I'm waiting on the sights from time to time as the muzzle flip is a bit more violent and any erratic sight tracking is magnified.

I am however a middle-of-the-road B shooter, though. For guys of Brian's ilk, it may be a non-issue.

[twodownzero]

I shoot a lot faster with minor PF. I may be shooting lots of minor this next year due to my injury, too (hit by a truck on my bicycle; shoulder is messed up)

[Jerome]

As a beginner, (started shooting earlier this year), I began with 9mm minor and switched to .45 major the last few matches, it was a HUGE difference in recoil and it slowed me down to where I felt like I was starting over again. Much bigger explosion and higher sight lift. But, once I got used to it, the gun seems to get back on target faster (although the blur of the lift is still more than minor) and my times and scores are getting back to where they were shooting minor. Obviously I'm not close to the "things like loads and springs matter less and less" stage that Steve mentions.

[Sean Gaines]

if we are just shooting into the berm, I can only pull the trigger as fast as my finger can pull the trigger. If we are talking about accuracy, then to me it depends on how well the gun tracks at the end of the recoil process when the slide shuts. Its funny that this topic is being brought up. This past weekend I took a new gun to the range and shot it after the match to break it in, and I could not pull the same type of accurate splits that I was getting with my gaming gun. They both were limited .40cal. Whith the new gun I could pull the trigger the same speed, but my shots were all over the place and i could see my sights all over the place and I didn't feel in control. Slow motion video showed that the slide came back fast and then when it shut, the whole gun would dip, then rise above the target, then it would settle back on target. then i could fire the next round accurately. I call it the tuning fork effect. that tuning fork effect has effected my splits, as opposed to the slide comming back and then closing forward with little movement. So to shoot faster accurately you must get that tuning fork action out of the equation.

here is video;

The first set of shots, I am just pulling the trigger as quickly as i can, the second set of shots I am in control of the gun and you can look at the front sight to see where my shots are going. you can compare it to the mesh in the background.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Sean Gaines

[Jerome]

Sean, would you guess a lighter recoil spring would prevent the gun from dipping on the return?

When I went back to shooting the 9mm in practice one day, the recoil was noticeably lighter (as expected) however the recoil was different. So, that "different" made it a bit tougher to control although I thought I would be able to shoot more accurately and faster. Didn't do enough testing though. Too many guns, not enough time.

if we are just shooting into the berm, I can only pull the trigger as fast as my finger can pull the trigger. If we are talking about accuracy, then to me it depends on how well the gun tracks at the end of the recoil process when the slide shuts. Its funny that this topic is being brought up. This past weekend I took a new gun to the range and shot it after the match to break it in, and I could not pull the same type of accurate splits that I was getting with my gaming gun. They both were limited .40cal. Whith the new gun I could pull the trigger the same speed, but my shots were all over the place and i could see my sights all over the place and I didn't feel in control. Slow motion video showed that the slide came back fast and then when it shut, the whole gun would dip, then rise above the target, then it would settle back on target. then i could fire the next round accurately. I call it the tuning fork effect. that tuning fork effect has effected my splits, as opposed to the slide comming back and then closing forward with little movement. So to shoot faster accurately you must get that tuning fork action out of the equation.

here is video;

The first set of shots, I am just pulling the trigger as quickly as i can, the second set of shots I am in control of the gun and you can look at the front sight to see where my shots are going. you can compare it to the mesh in the background.

[Sean Gaines]

Sean, would you guess a lighter recoil spring would prevent the gun from dipping on the return?

When I went back to shooting the 9mm in practice one day, the recoil was noticeably lighter (as expected) however the recoil was different. So, that "different" made it a bit tougher to control although I thought I would be able to shoot more accurately and faster. Didn't do enough testing though. Too many guns, not enough time.

if we are just shooting into the berm, I can only pull the trigger as fast as my finger can pull the trigger. If we are talking about accuracy, then to me it depends on how well the gun tracks at the end of the recoil process when the slide shuts. Its funny that this topic is being brought up. This past weekend I took a new gun to the range and shot it after the match to break it in, and I could not pull the same type of accurate splits that I was getting with my gaming gun. They both were limited .40cal. Whith the new gun I could pull the trigger the same speed, but my shots were all over the place and i could see my sights all over the place and I didn't feel in control. Slow motion video showed that the slide came back fast and then when it shut, the whole gun would dip, then rise above the target, then it would settle back on target. then i could fire the next round accurately. I call it the tuning fork effect. that tuning fork effect has effected my splits, as opposed to the slide comming back and then closing forward with little movement. So to shoot faster accurately you must get that tuning fork action out of the equation.

here is video;

The first set of shots, I am just pulling the trigger as quickly as i can, the second set of shots I am in control of the gun and you can look at the front sight to see where my shots are going. you can compare it to the mesh in the background.

yes! the next thing is to test a lighter recoil spring, also those rounds are chronoing in my 6" gun at 175pf, so I may reduce the charge also. But the first is to lighten the recoil spring to something lighter than a 12.5#, I am going to go as low as I can,as long as the gun will cycle 100%, if that doesn't do it, then lowering the charge, and then I am going to try some 200gr bullets. that should flatten it out, but I am trying to do it with some 180's first, because thats what I mainly shoot.