Possible timer error

[KyroWebs]

A good friend of mine just ran a stage at a major match not too long ago and after scoring, etc went back to clean/reload mags. The RO/scorekeeper took his scoresheet to him to sign a few minutes later (next shooter has already started), but he thinks there is an error with the time. I completely agreed with him as the recorded time was likely double what his actual time was. What is the proper way to handle/contest it?

[Kevin G.]

Did he sign the scoresheet?

[KyroWebs]

I'm not sure if he noticed it before he signed it or not.....but for the sake of the topic, let's say he didn't sign it yet.

He didn't want to make a big deal out of it so he just accepted the time, but for future reference I'd like to know what the proper way to handle it is.

[Schutzenmeister]

9.10 ... (Basically) If an accurate time cannot be determined, the shooter must reshoot the CoF. Hence, I would think that if BOTH the shooter and the RO agree there has been some type of timer malfunction, then a reshoot is almost certainly in order.

[twodownzero]

Yep, reshoot. And yes, it happens. I've had to hit the review button to get the proper score before.

[Classic_jon]

Things like this are why it is important to have a timer that has a review function and for the RO/SO's to have more than one timer handy in case something needs to be contested.

We had that happen at one of our local matches and we grabbed another Timer and the SO that ran the competitor, the MD, and the competitor went over to a table away from the stage and reviewed the previous string of fire and gave him the correct time. It is kind of obvious when there is a 20 second gap between the last two shots.

[KyroWebs]

Things like this are why it is important to have a timer that has a review function and for the RO/SO's to have more than one timer handy in case something needs to be contested.

We had that happen at one of our local matches and we grabbed another Timer and the SO that ran the competitor, the MD, and the competitor went over to a table away from the stage and reviewed the previous string of fire and gave him the correct time. It is kind of obvious when there is a 20 second gap between the last two shots.

It would have been nice in this case, but the next shooter was already in the middle of his run when he noticed it. I really felt bad for him because it was the first stage of the day and it really threw him off for the rest of the match. To me it seemed like the RO knew something was wrong, but it was too little and too late to do anything.

It's weird because it's one of those stages where the time doesn't "feel" right, but it's impossible to prove by anything other than the afterthought "nah that's not right".

[Schutzenmeister]

This can be minimized - though admittedly, not necessarily totally eliminated - with good RO practice:

As the RO calls "IYAFUSC", he shows the timer to the scorekeeper who silently records the time. After "ICHDH" and "RIC" he then looks at the timer and announces the time for all to hear. At this point, the shooter and scorekeeper hear the time, and, if it does not agree with what the scorekeeper read and recorded, they correct it on the spot. Yes, it takes an extra two or three seconds per shooter to do this, but in the long run it will save time as just one reshoot will be the equivalent of 2 or 3 squads worth of doing it right in the first place!

[sperman]

A little bit of a thread drift, but...

After your run, your only concern should be making sure run run is scored properly, including the time. You're a lot less likely to have a problem if you hang out with the RO's. The mags can wait. (Plus it makes RO's unhappy when they have to chase you down.)

[Canuck223]

This can be minimized - though admittedly, not necessarily totally eliminated - with good RO practice:

As the RO calls "IYAFUSC", he shows the timer to the scorekeeper who silently records the time. After "ICHDH" and "RIC" he then looks at the timer and announces the time for all to hear. At this point, the shooter and scorekeeper hear the time, and, if it does not agree with what the scorekeeper read and recorded, they correct it on the spot. Yes, it takes an extra two or three seconds per shooter to do this, but in the long run it will save time as just one reshoot will be the equivalent of 2 or 3 squads worth of doing it right in the first place!

That's pretty much the norm around here, and the scorekeeper is the one collecting a signature.

On a busy range, the scorekeeper is generally scoring while moving up range, at least for some targets of opportunity which are spelled out to the squad. Patchers know to follow and patch as scored unless signalled to hold for review. While there is always the potential for an asshat to try and claim a reshoot as he didn't see a D/C before it was patched, that is addressed at the briefing with the advice to have a shadow keeping track.

It generally works well.

[Nik Habicht]

This can be minimized - though admittedly, not necessarily totally eliminated - with good RO practice:

As the RO calls "IYAFUSC", he shows the timer to the scorekeeper who silently records the time. After "ICHDH" and "RIC" he then looks at the timer and announces the time for all to hear. At this point, the shooter and scorekeeper hear the time, and, if it does not agree with what the scorekeeper read and recorded, they correct it on the spot. Yes, it takes an extra two or three seconds per shooter to do this, but in the long run it will save time as just one reshoot will be the equivalent of 2 or 3 squads worth of doing it right in the first place!

When I RO, I usually hold the timer so that the display is in my peripheral vision. Generally I can see the numbers flipping without necessarily being able to read them -- this saves me from letting the shooter finish the stage with a non-working timer. When the shooter hits the final position, I try to make sure, once his movement has ceased, to throw a glance at the timer, to make sure it's still registering shots.

With practice, it's possible to be certain that the timer recorded the last shot, and to have it in the RO's brain before issuing any range commands, all the while keeping an eye on the shooter....

[ima45dv8]

This can be minimized - though admittedly, not necessarily totally eliminated - with good RO practice:

As the RO calls "IYAFUSC", he shows the timer to the scorekeeper who silently records the time. After "ICHDH" and "RIC" he then looks at the timer and announces the time for all to hear. At this point, the shooter and scorekeeper hear the time, and, if it does not agree with what the scorekeeper read and recorded, they correct it on the spot. Yes, it takes an extra two or three seconds per shooter to do this, but in the long run it will save time as just one reshoot will be the equivalent of 2 or 3 squads worth of doing it right in the first place!

When I RO, I usually hold the timer so that the display is in my peripheral vision. Generally I can see the numbers flipping without necessarily being able to read them -- this saves me from letting the shooter finish the stage with a non-working timer. When the shooter hits the final position, I try to make sure, once his movement has ceased, to throw a glance at the timer, to make sure it's still registering shots.

With practice, it's possible to be certain that the timer recorded the last shot, and to have it in the RO's brain before issuing any range commands, all the while keeping an eye on the shooter....

Amen. I've been trying to teach/share that same tactic for a number of years. It doesn't detract from my attention but allows me to know that I have captured the last shot fired.

Look at any number of videos posted here and notice the RO doing The Statue of Liberty Walk behind the shooter. I guess they assume that holding the timer up high with an outstretched arm will capture the shots correctly, but they really have no way of knowing for sure because they can't see the display.

[High Lord Gomer]

Look at any number of videos posted here and notice ME doing The Statue of Liberty Walk behind the shooter.

...and all this time I thought you were just airing out your armpits...you were posing for the camera?!?

[ima45dv8]

Look at any number of videos posted here and notice ME doing The Statue of Liberty Walk behind the shooter.

...and all this time I thought you were just airing out your armpits...you were posing for the camera?!?

I guess you've mastered Multi-tasking.

[Chris iliff]

When ROing I hold the timer in such a way as to make it easily readable by the scorekeeper when the stage over. I glance at time, hold timer over my shoulder, and give the IUAFUASC plus ICHDAH. Once RIC I then read the time.

This is the best way I have found to get the time correct.

1. Timer never picks up any slide/magazine sounds.

2. Ejected round never has a chance to errantly hit the timer.

3. The scorekeeper usually gets it wrote down before I can say it. If what I see matches what I say and what is repeated back to me, all is good.

I've seen dozens of bad times try to be recorded because the RO has bad timer ettiquete. Holding the timer right next to the gun during the unload. After a review most have been corrected. I avoid all this with the above method. IMHO

Edited August 7, 2011 by fourtrax

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've had to re-start for one reason or another -

the start button had been pressed, the buzzer went

off, but I had to start again 20-30 seconds later.

A few times, the timer had not been re-set to zero,

I guess, because it seemed my total time for the

run was 20-30 seconds longer than I should have

been able to shoot the COF in - first time I

accepted it - 2nd time I questionned it. The

RO agreed to a reshoot.

Jack

[bayoupirate]

Good stuff here.

Fourtrax and Schutz have it right.

[dqshooter]

Lots of great suggestions, as an RO as soon as the the last shot is fired you should lokk at the time. Give the "IYAFUSC" and then call off the time and make sure the SO has it. If you know how to use your timer you can retreive the time but it is still questionable, give the shooter a reshoot and call it RO error(failure to record the proper time). Hey when you are at a big match stuff happens. The shooter has to shoot the stage once, the RO has been in the heat or the cold for several days and they are after all volunteers and do make mistakes. I know how frustrating it can be when something like this happens and if it throws your match off that is really to bad.

[Dan Hefta]

When ROing I hold the timer in such a way as to make it easily readable by the scorekeeper when the stage over. I glance at time, hold timer over my shoulder, and give the IUAFUASC plus ICHDAH. Once RIC I then read the time.

This is the best way I have found to get the time correct.

1. Timer never picks up any slide/magazine sounds.

2. Ejected round never has a chance to errantly hit the timer.

3. The scorekeeper usually gets it wrote down before I can say it. If what I see matches what I say and what is repeated back to me, all is good.

I've seen dozens of bad times try to be recorded because the RO has bad timer ettiquete. Holding the timer right next to the gun during the unload. After a review most have been corrected. I avoid all this with the above method. IMHO

I use this exact method when I run shooters, I have been a victim of the timer counting my unloading of the gun because the RO was holding the timer right next to my gun... didn't catch it until I watched the video the next day. I hold the timer right at eye level and can see the shots counting as we move through the COF.

[AlamoShooter]

Or the RO does not realize that the Hard Rain is keeping the timer running. on a long hard stage in the mountians

[Skydiver]

Lots of great suggestions, as an RO as soon as the the last shot is fired you should lokk at the time. Give the "IYAFUSC" and then call off the time and make sure the SO has it. If you know how to use your timer you can retreive the time but it is still questionable, give the shooter a reshoot and call it RO error(failure to record the proper time). Hey when you are at a big match stuff happens. The shooter has to shoot the stage once, the RO has been in the heat or the cold for several days and they are after all volunteers and do make mistakes. I know how frustrating it can be when something like this happens and if it throws your match off that is really to bad.

I recommend not calling out the time at that moment. Just glance at in and then hold the timer to let the assistant RO see it and write down the time. Continue on to ICHDH and RIC. Why is this important? In the case you as an RO want to offer the shooter a reshoot under 8.6.4 for interference. By calling out the time, you've taken away the option because the shooter now knows his/her time. After RIC, make a decision whether to offer the reshoot, then either make the offer or call out the time.

Obviously, if there was not any interference, then by all means call out the time, but it's usually good to do things is the same order all the time.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Skydiver

[weekendgunner]

1. RO should move the timer back for the score keeper to read as soon as he thinks the shooter is finished. This will protect the timer from any stray sounds that may add to the score (time)

2. The shooter or his representative needs to stay with the ROto confirm the score as the RO is scoring. This make it much easter to catch and correct mistakes