The disabled shooter. Do they/we have a place in shooting

[West Texas Granny]

As per suggestion in another topic I've started this thread on the Disabled Shooter and their place in IPSC/USPSA.

Well do I as a shooter with disabilities have a place. I personally have mobility and range of movement problems. As in another topic it was mentioned that mags must be behind the hip in certain classes and it was suggested I not shoot those classes, a position I find unacceptable. Also mentioned was a rule ( 5.2.9 ) but as usual said rule can be applied differently from one match to the next leaving the Disabled Shooter in limbo as they will never know if they can shoot. What can be done?

[Dan Hefta]

As long as you are a safe shooter, you could shoot at any of my matches. If a shooter has a disability that limits their ability to comply with holster or mag placement... I think it could be overlooked with no objections from fellow shooters... is there a rule backing this up?

[bobbleeye]

To me the main question is can the shooter function in the match safely, if the shooter can do that, they should be allowed to shoot the match, allowances can be made to accomadate a person with disabilities, I'm not saying change the rules, but if a person needs to have there mag holders a little different than exactly stated in the rules, common sense should prevail, of course there are people who will try to push things saying they have problems, again common sense should come in to play, we have a wonderful sport and should allow a place for anyone that can be safe. If there is a question on safty have the person demonstrate that they are able to handle the firearm safely, no one should be against that, again common sense. Lets keep this sport going, by helping everyone find a place in it for them. Yes I was disabled for a while, I am one of the lucky ones that was able to overcome it, when I started shooting again I was aske to demonstrate that I could do it safely, I didn't get mad, I did it, don't have the speed I did, but more important I still have FUN every match that I attend.

[BritinUSA]

I would suggest that there needs to be a process in place to handle this a little differently than the rules currently allow. Rule 5.2.9 indicates a 'match by match' basis for the ruling. This handles a short-term disability but for a permanent or long-term disability it leaves the shooter with the possibility of being treated differently from one match to another.

Perhaps a change is required to handle long-term/permanent disability where NROI could issue a ruling on a per-shooter basis rather than a per-match basis. So the shooter could attend any match and be treated the same way by each Match Director.

I suggest you contact NROI and ask them if this is feasible, click this to send them an e-mail ----> dnroi@uspsa.org

[vluc]

5.2.9 should cover it, but then you are dealing with how different Range Masters may approach it. I can't see an RM giving a lot of grief over this issue, unless you have already encountered it.

There are enough divisions to accommodate a disability, and there does need to be flexibility (no pun intended) on both the part of the shooter and the range master. Unacceptable is a strong and responsive tone to take in a game that has rules. Reasonable accommodation is a two way street.

Edited July 27, 2011 by vluc

[Lanzo]

How is having to place mags at the hips or back a "unacceptable" position? If you want to shoot and compete in those classes then you have to follow the same rules as everyone else, regardless of your disability.

No one should be telling you you can't shoot a production rig with mags in front of your hips. You can shoot whatever configuration you want as long as its safe. If you want to shoot those classes and put the mags in front of your hips then score yourself as limited minor and have at it. Too easy.

You can't bend rules to suit people, that's why they are rules. They are there to place all competitors on the same playing field. Once you start...where do you stop? Good luck!

--Lanzo

The whole point is to shoo safely and have fun. When you start bending

[vluc]

We have had several disabled shooters at our clubs. One had to use a walker (shooting Open), took him several minutes to shoot, but he did it safely until he was no longer mobile. Another shooter has a partial arm. he shoots production, shoots it quite well. Mag placement is not a problem for him, nor has he asked for accommodations. He accepts the penalties for weak hand shooting and moves on.

Range of motion and mobility problems from a distinct disability versus those from arthritis and age are two different kettles of fish and need clarified. I have difficulty fully extending my arms above my head. Pain and discomfort, but on those stages requiring it, I push them up, and shoot.

[Skydiver]

Mark's gonna hate me but consider these cases:

- Let's say that surgeon's have reconstructed my strong side shoulder that limits my range of motion so that I can only reach my 1911 if it's in a drop offset holster? Single Stack legal?

Probably yes through 5.2.9 with the RM's approval.

- Let's say that surgeon's have reconstructed my wrist that limits my range of motion so that only a Ghost Holster works for me? Production or Single Stack legal?

Probably yes through 5.2.9 with the RM's approval.

- Let's say I have vision impairment and the only sights that work for me are ghost ring sights (or red dot sights). Can I still shoot in production division if the rest of the gear is production legal (except for the sights)?

I'm saying no since 5.2.9 only covers holsters and related equipment. My best reading is that it doesn't cover the gun itself.

I do like BritinUSA's suggestion that maybe there should be a process for a shooter to apply for a a per shooter dispensation/waiver, rather than a match-by-match accommodation. Maybe something worked out through the section coordinator, perhaps?

Overall, though, flexibility in the part of the RM as well as the shooter is needed. The goal is to have fun safely.

[bdpaz]

Based on a previous topic along these lines, I think most people are like Skydiver and assume "The goal is to have fun safely" while for WTG the goal is to win.

Puts a different light on the level of accommodation!

[MarkCO]

I suggest that such a competitor ask the MD prior to the match. This avoids frustration for both parties and allows consultation with NROI if need be.

We have a lot of disabled shooters who shoot safely, and that, as a MD is the bottom line for me. I'm not a rule bender by nature, so I will accomdate within the rules as much as is possible. Confronted with something I can't figure out, I'd check with NROI.

We have a war vet who has shot several matches, he has no legs, but he does well with various accomodations of the host club and fellow shooters.

[bbbean]

Reasonable accommodation is a two way street.

+1. I think a handicapped shooter has to have reasonable expectations. You're presumably shooting for fun and to challenge yourself, not to try to outrun the 20 yr old track star. If competing means that instead of shooting Production or SS you need to go to Limited or Open to accommodate a non-standard holster position, where's the harm? You're still shooting, you're still competing, and you're still challenging yourself.

[vluc]

Mark's gonna hate me but consider these cases:

- Let's say that surgeon's have reconstructed my strong side shoulder that limits my range of motion so that I can only reach my 1911 if it's in a drop offset holster? Single Stack legal?

Probably yes through 5.2.9 with the RM's approval.

- Let's say that surgeon's have reconstructed my wrist that limits my range of motion so that only a Ghost Holster works for me? Production or Single Stack legal?

Probably yes through 5.2.9 with the RM's approval.

- Let's say I have vision impairment and the only sights that work for me are ghost ring sights (or red dot sights). Can I still shoot in production division if the rest of the gear is production legal (except for the sights)?

I'm saying no since 5.2.9 only covers holsters and related equipment. My best reading is that it doesn't cover the gun itself.

I do like BritinUSA's suggestion that maybe there should be a process for a shooter to apply for a a per shooter dispensation/waiver, rather than a match-by-match accommodation. Maybe something worked out through the section coordinator, perhaps?

Overall, though, flexibility in the part of the RM as well as the shooter is needed. The goal is to have fun safely.

I can see RM approval but I can also see a penalty of some sort applied for competitive advantage. We start doing these waivers and we will need shooters to bring documented proof of said disability, etc., forcing RM's to become physicians or have detailed medical knowledge. Then along comes a physician shooting, hears about it, calls BS, and then where are we?

Edited July 27, 2011 by vluc

[atbarr]

Range of motion and mobility problems from a distinct disability versus those from arthritis and age are two different kettles of fish and need clarified. I have difficulty fully extending my arms above my head. Pain and discomfort, but on those stages requiring it, I push them up, and shoot.

I shot a stage that required me to extend my arms over my head, this was the first stage. I dropped my arms and shot each target twice. I then dropped the mag and put in another mag. As I raised my pistol to shoot strong hand only, I torn my rotator cuff. I had a total right shoulder replacement in April '10. So if this stage comes up again, I'll touch my ears and take a procedural. My doctor told me never again. Hopefully, I'll be able to shoot again in September.

[Jay870]

My opinion:

Disabled individuals should be allowed to compete as long as they are able to safely do so.

All competitors should be subject to Divisional equipment requirements.

The only exception to Divisional equipment requirements should be the case where a competitor's disability dictates use of and/or positioning of equipment that is not legal in any divison. In such instances, after the RM has ruled the equipment/positioning safe, a disability exemption should allow the competitor to shoot for score in Open division.

[twodownzero]

My opinion:

Disabled individuals should be allowed to compete as long as they are able to safely do so.

All competitors should be subject to Divisional equipment requirements.

The only exception to Divisional equipment requirements should be the case where a competitor's disability dictates use of and/or positioning of equipment that is not legal in any divison. In such instances, after the RM has ruled the equipment/positioning safe, a disability exemption should allow the competitor to shoot for score in Open division.

I agree with this.

Being 5'5" is a serious disadvantage in a lot of cases. I don't ask for an accommodation--I just do the best that I can.

Others should do the same.

If you can't satisfy the requirements for a division, you should not be allowed to shoot in that division. That includes magazine placement. We have several competitive divisions to choose from. If you can't compete in one, there are others. If you find that unacceptable, there are other shooting games besides USPSA.

Edited July 27, 2011 by twodownzero

[JFlowers]

The only time I have ever seen any issues with a disabled shooter was when the physical terrain of the range made it difficult. Otherwise I have always seen MDs and RMs willing to make reasonable accomidations. But many of the disabled shooters I have seen or read about took it upon themselves to accomidate themselves within the rules. For example, I have seen pics and heard stories about the shooter who had a rig build for himself that held his mags upright by the basepad. He pushed the gun down onto the mag and then forward to release the mag from the holder. And off he went shooting with one arm.

I do agree that the easiest way to make life go smoothly is to get in touch with major match MDs and discuss any thing unusual. Makes things go smooth when the MD tells the ROs its already been discussed and handled at the morning meeting rather than getting a radio call per stage.

[thegunmom]

I find this thread interesting, and can certainly see both sides. My 11 y/o is a disabled shooter. He has had more than 10 hand reconstructive surgorys. When he first started, he started in lim 10, minor. He is now completely legal in SS. No concessions had to made other than an occassional step because he is too short to see out of some ports. I think there is a place for all shooters. Just look at Trevor, the Smith shooter that is in a wheelchair. He shoots Bianci, as it is non-moving competition. If he can do it, anyone can.

[steel1212]

Range of motion and mobility problems from a distinct disability versus those from arthritis and age are two different kettles of fish and need clarified. I have difficulty fully extending my arms above my head. Pain and discomfort, but on those stages requiring it, I push them up, and shoot.

I shot a stage that required me to extend my arms over my head, this was the first stage. I dropped my arms and shot each target twice. I then dropped the mag and put in another mag. As I raised my pistol to shoot strong hand only, I torn my rotator cuff. I had a total right shoulder replacement in April '10. So if this stage comes up again, I'll touch my ears and take a procedural. My doctor told me never again. Hopefully, I'll be able to shoot again in September.

Sorry! I honestly didn't pay attention to the WSB when picking that stage.

I try my best to work with my diabled shooters. A.T. being one that has some limited movement issues . I typically try to keep AT in mind when coming up with stages as I know he shoots all my matches that he can and I want him to have fun. He also understands that I can't make all stages "AT proof" if you will. I'm a by the book kind of guy. If you can't shoot with gun behind hip bone because of a disability what is wrong with shooting limited or limited 10 so that you can put your gear where it needs to be?

[de03x7]

We have had several disabled shooters at our clubs. One had to use a walker (shooting Open), took him several minutes to shoot, but he did it safely until he was no longer mobile. Another shooter has a partial arm. he shoots production, shoots it quite well. Mag placement is not a problem for him, nor has he asked for accommodations. He accepts the penalties for weak hand shooting and moves on.

Range of motion and mobility problems from a distinct disability versus those from arthritis and age are two different kettles of fish and need clarified. I have difficulty fully extending my arms above my head. Pain and discomfort, but on those stages requiring it, I push them up, and shoot.

Why would he take penalties for weak hand shots? If he has only one hand would it not be his weak hand as well as his strong hand? I am sure that he is taking enough of a time penalty on his reloads to make up for any advantage gained.I'm sure he would never complain and just go on.

[clown]

Agreed.

10.2.10.1 Exception – In a weak hand/strong hand stage, a competitor who

has physical use of only one hand may use the same hand for

both weak and strong without penalty.

[bdpaz]

We have had several disabled shooters at our clubs. One had to use a walker (shooting Open), took him several minutes to shoot, but he did it safely until he was no longer mobile. Another shooter has a partial arm. he shoots production, shoots it quite well. Mag placement is not a problem for him, nor has he asked for accommodations. He accepts the penalties for weak hand shooting and moves on.

Range of motion and mobility problems from a distinct disability versus those from arthritis and age are two different kettles of fish and need clarified. I have difficulty fully extending my arms above my head. Pain and discomfort, but on those stages requiring it, I push them up, and shoot.

Why would he take penalties for weak hand shots? If he has only one hand would it not be his weak hand as well as his strong hand? I am sure that he is taking enough of a time penalty on his reloads to make up for any advantage gained.I'm sure he would never complain and just go on.

I think you're right if it is a special course of fire calling for weak hand (10.2.10.1 Exception – In a weak hand/strong hand stage, a competitor who has physical use of only one hand may use the same hand for both weak and strong without penalty.) but if a general course of fire has targets that can only be shot weak hand without faulting he would be penalized.

[ima45dv8]

Well do I as a shooter with disabilities have a place.

Yes, of course.

I personally have mobility and range of movement problems. As in another topic it was mentioned that mags must be behind the hip in certain classes and it was suggested I not shoot those classes, a position I find unacceptable.

The various options open to you are Divisions; not Classes.

Within those various Divisions you could likely find a place that suits you and your particular limitations. That might require a measure of willingness to adapt to the opportunities available.

If that's not something you're willing to consider, 5.2.9 and 10.2.10 inclusive provide some relief.

Also mentioned was a rule ( 5.2.9 ) but as usual said rule can be applied differently from one match to the next leaving the Disabled Shooter in limbo as they will never know if they can shoot. What can be done?

I won't agree with your blanket characterization of the USPSA rule set. Yes, this particular rule does leave some judgment up to the individuals at the match, but it's one of a very few.

If you're seeing the objective rules being applied differently from one location to another, I hope you contact your Section Coordinator. They will get involved as your advocate, and an advocate of our rulebook.

==============

WTG, I'll happily reveal that I was ecstatic when the latest versions of the "Special Penalty" rules were introduced. Prior to that it was almost an automatic 20% penalty for not being able to physically meet the requirements for a Division or a Course of Fire. That was just wrong. The new versions give me/us much more leeway to say, "Don't worry about it....just shoot and have fun."

Once or twice I've been asked about calls like that, and my usual response is, "If you're worried she's going to whip your butt in this match because of [fill-in-the-blank], you need to get out and practice more".

If you find yourself in this area sometime, please come shoot with us. I'll even buy you lunch after the match!

[steel1212]

Well do I as a shooter with disabilities have a place.

Yes, of course.

I personally have mobility and range of movement problems. As in another topic it was mentioned that mags must be behind the hip in certain classes and it was suggested I not shoot those classes, a position I find unacceptable.

The various options open to you are Divisions; not Classes.

Within those various Divisions you could likely find a place that suits you and your particular limitations. That might require a measure of willingness to adapt to the opportunities available.

If that's not something you're willing to consider, 5.2.9 and 10.2.10 inclusive provide some relief.

Also mentioned was a rule ( 5.2.9 ) but as usual said rule can be applied differently from one match to the next leaving the Disabled Shooter in limbo as they will never know if they can shoot. What can be done?

I won't agree with your blanket characterization of the USPSA rule set. Yes, this particular rule does leave some judgment up to the individuals at the match, but it's one of a very few.

If you're seeing the objective rules being applied differently from one location to another, I hope you contact your Section Coordinator. They will get involved as your advocate, and an advocate of our rulebook.

==============

WTG, I'll happily reveal that I was ecstatic when the latest versions of the "Special Penalty" rules were introduced. Prior to that it was almost an automatic 20% penalty for not being able to physically meet the requirements for a Division or a Course of Fire. That was just wrong. The new versions give me/us much more leeway to say, "Don't worry about it....just shoot and have fun."

Once or twice I've been asked about calls like that, and my usual response is, "If you're worried she's going to whip your butt in this match because of [fill-in-the-blank], you need to get out and practice more".

If you find yourself in this area sometime, please come shoot with us. I'll even buy you lunch after the match!

Your just a big softie!

[ima45dv8]

Your just a big softie!

Of course I am.

But don't tell anybody. It'll just be our little secret.

[JeffWard]

In every sport, there are exclusions at various levels, for various disabilities. I would like to say that all athletes should have equal access, to all levels of sport... but it's simply not so. At a certain level, the integrity of the sport must be compromised, to accommodate the athlete, which should not be done.

Regardless of the rules, at the local level fun matches, social matches, ALL accommodations should be made, as long as it does not give a competitor a decided unfair advantage (like a red-dot scope in Production). These are pretty well laid out in the above rules.

At higher levels of competition, should all stages be wheel-chair friendly/accessible? NO!!!!!

NASCAR does not accommodate blind drivers.

The NFL does not have exceptions to their rules for wheelchair athletes.

USPSA should not compromise ITS rules for disabled competitors either.

Should horse racing give me a half-lap handicap because I'm 240 lbs, and my horse can't compete? Should I be considered a "disabled" jockey, because I was cursed with the genes that make me a full 100 lbs heavier than any jockey at the highest levels? No. I am still welcome to ride a horse. I am still welcome to try to qualify for the Kentucky Derby... but within the same rules as the 100-120lb jockeys...

We have a guy in St Pete that is shooting Open Division at age 86!!!!!! Is he "disabled"???? Yeah, compared to me, at an athletic age 40, with great vision, he IS. Do we accommodate him a little??? NOT much!!!! He still goes prone when required! It just takes a few seconds more for him to get back up! I could only hope I'm still in this crazy game at 86.... Should we reserve a slot for Ralph at Nationals, or handicap him 5 seconds on every stage??? No... Nor does he expect special treatment.

He just shoots what he can, as fast as he can, as safely as he can, and ENJOYS the game.

Jeff

Edited July 28, 2011 by JeffWard