Matches with no Classifiers

[PKT1106]

There have been a few matches of various levels that I have noticed there is no classifier stage. I realize it is up to the match directors to decide if they want a classifier, but if there is no classifier stage, doesn't make the match sort of arbitrary from a USPSA stand-point? I mean to say, if there is no classifier stage, what ties the match to the USPSA other than the name?

To be clear, I have no problem with matches with no classifiers, I am just curious as to what everyone's thought are about the subject.

[JFlowers]

Level II and III matches often count as classifiers themselves. The requirement is at least 3 GrandMasters in the division. So often OPEN, LIMITED, L10, PRODUCTION, and SS count, but REVO doesn't. I have shot some club (Level I) matches that did not have a classifier but they are actually rare in my area.

[Avezorak]

I have shot one club match several times and not shot a classifier yet. I dont go there much anymore. Its kinda pointless to me.

[ima45dv8]

....if there is no classifier stage, what ties the match to the USPSA other than the name?

Hopefully, the mission count fees.

[Graham Smith]

Hopefully, the mission count fees.

I was thinking the same thing. If there are no classifiers to upload then there are no USPSA fees to pay.

[Dan Hefta]

I don't allways have classifiers at my matches, we run a tight ship and we are USPSA all the way (classifiers don't make it USPSA, the match structure does).

I like to have high round count stages and quite honestly classifiers are boring and I do this for fun... I don't get paid and have had no complaints... so far I have been trying to have one at each match this year, only because we have a lot of new shooters this year and they are desperate to get classified.

[joseywales]

... but if there is no classifier stage, doesn't make the match sort of arbitrary from a USPSA stand-point?

No - If the match calls itself a USPSA match, uses the USPSA rulebook, then the club owes mission count fees ($1.50/shooter) to USPSA.

It's still a USPSA match, just a USPSA match without a classifier stage. Many Level II matches will NOT have a classifier stage.

Our club in NTX will occasionally omit a classifier stage - usually there are justifiable reasons (in my mind) for omitting a classifier stage, like:

The club may have recently conducted, or has on its schedule, a special classifier match (4 or more classifiers in a match).

The club may have more than one match during a month, and chooses to have a classifier stage at only one of the matches (my club does this).

The MD may choose to have an additional field course - especially if there are "Short Courses" in the match that have a classifier "look & feel".

I can take them or leave them - but that's just me - I've been shooting USPSA for a while.

Classifiers are "just another stage" in the match at this point in my shooting journey.

That wasn't always the case - when I first started, I really wanted to know how I stacked up against the national audience, so classifiers were very important to me at that time.

Omitting a classifier is something that a club shouldn't do very often, as I think that most shooters at Level I matches expect and want a classifier stage.

Edited June 30, 2011 by joseywales

[MrFarnham]

I have shot one club match several times and not shot a classifier yet. I dont go there much anymore. Its kinda pointless to me.

I am still a new shooter (about a year) and I agree about it being pointless. I signed for a USPSA membership to take advantage of their classification system and as one way to judge the development of my abilities. If a local match doesn't have a classifier, I do get disappointed and if they made a habit of it, I probably would stop going.

Edited June 30, 2011 by MrFarnham

[vluc]

If the clubs you go to do not run a classifier, mention something to the match director and the section coordinator. There may be a legitimate reason or not, but until you ask THEM, you won't know for sure. You may help correct a problem or answer a question for them as to why they don't get many new shooters or why they don't stay at that club.

[MarkCO]

Hopefully, the mission count fees.

I was thinking the same thing. If there are no classifiers to upload then there are no USPSA fees to pay.

But you still owe fees, $1.50/shooter.

[Joe4d]

Does a classifier have to be part of a match ? Alot of stand and shoot classifiers dont take alot of room and are easy to set up, Lets say classifier with a dedicated RO was set up off to the side and only the shooters that wanted to shoot it came over before or after the shot the match stages.

[Dan Hefta]

For those of you that are unhappy with the way matches are run or the stages that are shot... volunteer to help run a match or two and you will see it a different light, this I know for a fact.

[vluc]

For those of you that are unhappy with the way matches are run or the stages that are shot... volunteer to help run a match or two and you will see it a different light, this I know for a fact.

LOL, what I was going to say....

[PKT1106]

I don't allways have classifiers at my matches, we run a tight ship and we are USPSA all the way (classifiers don't make it USPSA, the match structure does).

I would say that both the structure and the classifiers are what makes USPSA. If we abandon the classifiers whenever we want, how will we be able to make matches even playing fields?

I like to have high round count stages and quite honestly classifiers are boring and I do this for fun... I don't get paid and have had no complaints... so far I have been trying to have one at each match this year, only because we have a lot of new shooters this year and they are desperate to get classified.

I understand that the classifiers aren't as fun as some of the crazy field course designs that people come up with, especially for those shooters who have been doing this for a long time, but there are always new shooters who want to shoot as many classifiers as they can to get in the classification door. I think that a USPSA match should accomodate at least 1 classifier so newer shooters can start out and continue to build on their progress.

For those of you that are unhappy with the way matches are run or the stages that are shot... volunteer to help run a match or two and you will see it a different light, this I know for a fact.

If anything, having a classifier would make it easier to run a match since the stage is pre-determined and that is one less stage people have to create.

And I am not complaining about any match running or the stages that I see, I am asking what people's opinions are about USPSA matches that do not include classifier stages.

Edited June 30, 2011 by PKT1106

[Avezorak]

For those of you that are unhappy with the way matches are run or the stages that are shot... volunteer to help run a match or two and you will see it a different light, this I know for a fact.

I am MD at my local match nearly evey month. Its not a big club, but it still takes work. I still feel that if I am going to shoot a USPSA match, I want it to have a classifier. Im NOT saying that is the only way matches should be run, Im stating my personal preference.

Its such a short easy stage, why leave it out?

[Dan Hefta]

I just get offended when people say it's not a USPSA match if there is not a classifier, like I said before I am USPSA all the way. Here's my take on classifiers and why they are a pain in my butt. I only have 4 bays to work with, my shooters want high round count stages, then you throw a classifier in there and then there's a bottleneck and the match does not flow as smoothly. I recently have come up with a solution to that issue, I run a classifier and a speed shoot stage in the same bay, that takes care of the bottleneck. The only issue I have with this topic is, classifiers do not make it a USPSA match, the shooters and volunteers do.

[MarkCO]

We just ran a Super Classifier, 90 entries, 6 classifiers, rolling squads. Had Ron Avery teach a "Classifier Class" the day before. I've never gotten so many "Thank-yous" for running a match. But I still think USPSA pistol matches should have one classifier in them. I don't run any classifiers at our USPSA MG matches, but we still send in the fees.

[joseywales]

...And I am not complaining about any match running or the stages that I see, I am asking what people's opinions are about USPSA matches that do not include classifier stages.

I'm absolutely fine with USPSA matches that do not include classifiers.

Matches with fun & challenging stages keep me coming back - with or without a classifier.

Keep in mind that classifiers aren't necessarily the "best" way to measure shooting ability.

Take in an Area or Nationals match - it's a truer measure than the classification rating.

[Dan Burwell]

My take as a Match director is; matches are about what the shooters want. Local matches shooters want classifiers so they can see how they are ranking or want to get classified for when they shoot larger matches. At Level II/III shooters want/expect kick butt stages, not 6 reload 6. The out come of the match shows how they are ranking, usually better than the classifiers do.

If we don't give the shooters what they want they won't be back (and rightfully so). So if we want to keep the club going we have to make sure we are doing what our shooters want.

And yes, USPSA matches pay a head count to USPSA even without a classifier, so there is still the financial benefit to the organization.

[remoandiris]

If we abandon the classifiers whenever we want, how will we be able to make matches even playing fields?

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. If you shoot Open, you are Open. If you shoot Production, you are Production. You compete against the others in your division. How is NOT having a classifier stage making the playing field uneven?

IMO, there are so many sandbaggers out there that classifiers aren't much of a discriminator in B and C class. You want to seperate yourself from the field, do well in the match and the classifiers will take care of themselves.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion...classifiers are one item that generate Nationals slots per club, right?

[kmca]

If we abandon the classifiers whenever we want, how will we be able to make matches even playing fields?

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. If you shoot Open, you are Open. If you shoot Production, you are Production. You compete against the others in your division. How is NOT having a classifier stage making the playing field uneven?

IMO, there are so many sandbaggers out there that classifiers aren't much of a discriminator in B and C class. You want to seperate yourself from the field, do well in the match and the classifiers will take care of themselves.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion...classifiers are one item that generate Nationals slots per club, right?

I believe he's saying, for example, he stands a chance competing against a B or C open shooter, doesn't stand a chance against a Grand master, master or A.

Anyhooo, at this time, I would pass a match without a classifier. I have been trying to get classified in all divisions, and I'm only one classifier away

[Flatland Shooter]

Here in the Houston area I'll occasionally go to a club match that does not include a classifier. Its very rare, but does happen. Not a big deal.

As long as they stay USPSA legal, no problem.

As for classifiers at Level 2 and 3 matches, I'm not a big fan. I'll get plenty at the monthly matches and when I reward myself with a big match, I want to shoot a lot of good stages.

JMHO.

Bill

[Poppa Bear]

We may or may not have a classifier. The deciding factors are what do the shooters want, when did we last have a classifier, is someone taking the responsibility themselves to set one up? We shoot 8 to 12 a year between practice nights and monthly matches so we are not lacking on classifiers.

[tobydog]

Our goal at local level is 1 classifier every other month, plus a special (5 classifiers) once a year. This will depend on weather conditions. I keep track of and chose the classifiers for my club. I hear it both ways, too many, or not enough. No one is happy all the time, do the best we can to accomodate people.

[Olivers_AR]

Think that at least one classifier is a good thing. Tough to tell if three GMs will show up in one division.