Need Help ruling on this situtation.

[DocMedic]

I couldn't find this in the rule book so I'll bring it here for my own education.

22rnd CoF, with No shoots extending the end of a wall that you had to shoot around to engage a plate rack 15yards away. Shooter starts plinking away at plate rack and on the 4th plate (really had to lean out of the box and around the wall and no shoots, shooter drills the no shoot in front of him and hits the the 4th plate. Shooter then unloads and shows clear, and discribed it was a range failure. The shot that hit the no shoot, which is 2 feet away from the shooting area was hit in the outer perf line, but the shot did hit the plate also. I scored it as 4hits and the rest misses including penalities to get things rolling, since we had a 18+ person squad, I had someone else RO and went RM for advice on how this is suppose to be ruled.

How is this suppose to be ruled?

Edited May 30, 2011 by DocMedic

[Outsydlooknin75]

If I remember correctly targets are impenetrable. REF is correct call if it passed thru a scoring zone on a no shoot.

But I believe it is the RO's job to call and not the shooters.

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[eerw]

isn't the outer perf not part of the scoring area of the target. it's only there to aid in scoring.

so if the bullet passed through the outer area, it should score the hit on the plate.

Edited May 30, 2011 by eerw

[Outsydlooknin75]

isn't the outer perf not part of the scoring area of the target. it's only there to aid in scoring.

so if the bullet passed through the outer area, it should score the hit on the plate.

Says it hit outer perf line which is a D hit.

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[Singlestack]

If the shot touched or cut the outside perf, it is a hit on the steel and a no-shoot. If fully inside the perf, Mike on the steel.

[Outsydlooknin75]

If the shot touched or cut the outside perf, it is a hit on the steel and a no-shoot. If fully inside the perf, Mike on the steel.

But if targets are impenetrable and it scored the no shoot then how does it score a hit on steel? If it cuts the outside perf that says its a no shoot to me and scores the penalty. If it DOESN'T cut the perf then I say its a hit on the steel since its outside the scoring border.

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[ChuckS]

If the shot was inside the NS perf or touching the perf on the inside (remember, the perf is also "impenetrable"), the situation would be a REF if the plate fell. If the plate did not fall, M-NS. If some portion of the bullet passed through the non-scoring border of the NS, then it would be hit on the plate (if it fell, of course) and a NS.

Note: Putting NS targets in front of steel is generally not a good idea from a REF standpoint. If you want to add challenge, put the steel farther back or give the shooter something to do with their strong hand

Later,

Chuck

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[caspian guy]

If the hit were entirely inside the scoring area of the no shoot and hit the steel I would think that was a ref, since the bullet passed entirely through the scoring area of the target, and targets are deemed to be impenetrable..

Edited May 30, 2011 by caspian guy

[Schutzenmeister]

If the shot was inside the NS perf or touching the perf on the inside (remember, the perf is also "impenetrable"), the situation would be a REF if the plate fell. If the plate did not fall, M-NS. If some portion of the bullet passed through the non-scoring border of the NS, then it would be hit on the plate (if it fell, of course) and a NS.

Note: Putting NS targets in front of steel is generally not a good idea from a REF standpoint. If you want to add challenge, put the steel farther back or give the shooter something to do with their strong hand

Later,

Chuck

Sent from my house using my computer.

Sorry Chuck, but not quite correct.

If the shot which hit the NS touches the non-scoring perf AT ALL, it earns both the penalty and whatever it strikes behind the NS. (9.5.3) Remember, it either touches the line or it does not. There is no "inside" or "outside" of the line.

What I am not clear about ... Did Plate #4 fall when hit? If not, then REF per 4.3.1.6.

[Joe4d]

thats really the only issue, did the plate fall ? If it fell and the bullet touched the outer pperf then the hit on N/S counts and the hit on steel counts, score as shot.

[Nik Habicht]

If the shot touched or cut the outside perf, it is a hit on the steel and a no-shoot. If fully inside the perf, Mike on the steel.

If fully inside the perf, range equipment failure.....

9.1.5.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored

If partially inside the perf, or wholly outside the perf, then 9.1.5.4 comes into play. Looks like the OP handled the situation correctly....

9.1.5.4 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

The shooter would get a couple of misses, and possibly FTEs, depending on circumstances....

[Schutzenmeister]

9.1.5.4 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

The shooter would get a couple of misses, and possibly FTEs, depending on circumstances....

Thanks Nik

That was actually a superior rule citation to the one I provided (9.5.3).

[JakeMartens]

The shot that hit the no shoot, which is 2 feet away from the shooting area was hit in the outer perf line, but the shot did hit the plate also. I scored it as 4hits and the rest misses including penalities to get things rolling,

This is how I would score it as well

got the no shoot, got the plate, and then 2 mikes and 2 FTE on the last 2 plates.

[Singlestack]

If the shot touched or cut the outside perf, it is a hit on the steel and a no-shoot. If fully inside the perf, Mike on the steel.

If fully inside the perf, range equipment failure.....

Oooopppsss... yep. I stand corrected.

[Nik Habicht]

If the shot touched or cut the outside perf, it is a hit on the steel and a no-shoot. If fully inside the perf, Mike on the steel.

If fully inside the perf, range equipment failure.....

Oooopppsss... yep. I stand corrected.

I learned that one the hard way as a stage designer, years ago..... :P

[BritinUSA]

I've sent an e-mail to the RM, I'll wait to see what he says. If he agrees with this interpretation then I will get my score zeroed for the stage. This was a qualifier match for slots to 2012 Nationals so it needs to be corrected if it is wrong.

[MarkCO]

I've sent an e-mail to the RM, I'll wait to see what he says. If he agrees with this interpretation then I will get my score zeroed for the stage. This was a qualifier match for slots to 2012 Nationals so it needs to be corrected if it is wrong.

Paul, you were granted a re-shoot right? So regradless if it was originally sacored wrong, once the re-shoot is granted, you get the re-shoot score. Not your fault if it was officiated incorrectly in the original run.

Did the subject round pass wholly or partially through the wall?

If it touched the scoring area AND non-soring perimeter, or the non-scoring permiter only (subject to answer of above questions), then 9.5.3 should apply and it should have been scored when the competitor stopped. UNLESS "STOP" is issued, keep shooting and deal with the ruling after USC.

[BritinUSA]

The round cut the perf on the No-Shoot and hit the steel. It did not hit the wall.

Edited May 30, 2011 by BritinUSA

[Casman]

I've sent an e-mail to the RM, I'll wait to see what he says. If he agrees with this interpretation then I will get my score zeroed for the stage. This was a qualifier match for slots to 2012 Nationals so it needs to be corrected if it is wrong.

Hey Guys,

I am the RM that made the reshoot call on this one. Here is why I made the call that I did; the No-shoot in question was attached to the end of a wall with the side that was hit, flush to the edge of the wood leg. (I now the arrangement of this one because I am the one who put the No-shoot there in the first place.) The shot in question passed through the No-shoot, then through the wood leg and then hit the plate. Since props are deemed impenetrable this constitutes an REF.

I will be the first to admit that this arrangement was not ideal and better course design might have avoided the problem in the first place. Our range requires that all shots must impact the back berm only, this makes setting interesting COFs very tricky with respect to not creating shoot throughs, unfortunately this one was missed in the setup walk through. My apologies to any of our shooters that were caused heart-burn by this.

As for the offer to have the score zeroed. That is very nice and noble but the REF call was not the shooter's it was the RMs and scores are in and cannot be changed now. That said, the shooter should not have stopped himself for the shot. If the call had gone the other way it would have meant a lot of penalties. As I understand it however, there may have been other reasons that the shooter chose to stop and the shot and subsequent call just happened to work in his favor.

Here are the rules that were considered for the call.

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the

written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and

other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to

hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range

equipment failure (see Section.4.6). The competitor will be required

to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

I hope that this will clarify why the call was made the way it was.

Happy shooting everyone.

[Casman]

The round cut the perf on the No-Shoot and hit the steel. It did not hit the wall.

Ok, this went up while I was writing my rely. The way the No-shoot was ttached to the wall,the bullet would have had to pass through the wood... if the wood was not already shot out of that area.

[JakeMartens]

It did not hit the wall.

Edited May 30, 2011 by JakeMartens

[BritinUSA]

The round cut the perf on the No-Shoot and hit the steel. It did not hit the wall.

Ok, this went up while I was writing my rely. The way the No-shoot was ttached to the wall,the bullet would have had to pass through the wood... if the wood was not already shot out of that area.

Quite possible now that you mention it. I could see the plate rack through the hole in the NS, so I assumed that it had not hit the wooden wall, didn't think to check behind it.

[DocMedic]

Well since the cats out of the bag on how and who I just wanted to state that I have no ill will or intent against BritinUSA or Casamen. I just didn't know how to score this it could had gone either way.(Thats why I tried to describe the situation as broadly as possible.) I came here to ask this question to only educate myself in case this happens next time. Sorry if this cause some stirrings.

[Casman]

Well since the cats out of the bag on how and who I just wanted to state that I have no ill will or intent against BritinUSA or Casamen. I just didn't know how to score this it could had gone either way.(Thats why I tried to describe the situation as broadly as possible.) I came here to ask this question to only educate myself in case this happens next time. Sorry if this cause some stirrings.

No worries by me Doc. We all try to make the best/most fair calls we can and that requires following up on questions like this so we can all learn and do a better job and that definitely includes yours truly.

Have a great Memorial Day and Thank you for your service!

[MarkCO]

Sorry if this cause some stirrings.

I'm sure no one has any lastings "stirrings" over this one and I think it was good to post here. It is discussions like this, on THIS board, that hopefully will help the right call be made the next time someone else at some other club comes up with a similar situation. The desire by all to end up with the right call initially, and open it up for discussion to see what others think is what we all SHOULD do.