Nemesis Lead Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 (edited) I shot xxxx a match recently. One shooter shot .357 SIG in Limited 10. The chorno man ruled him "major." I was shocked. With a .355 bullet he should have been ruled minor. Someone reminded the chrono man of this and he ignored him. No one was willing to fight any further on the issue. Honestly, I don't really care as .357 SIG recoils almost as much as .40 anyways. I was just surprised as this was a major match and the chrono man didn't know the rules. Perhaps I will bring a 38 Super as my Limited gun at the next match! A little competitive advantage for me! ;-) Edited April 20, 2011 by Nemesis Lead specific match references removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Yikes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 should have called the range master and match director for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, Was this a USPSA or IPSC ? Doesnt IPSC allow 357 sig for major if the shooter is from a place that has some legal restrictions on 40 ? If this was USPSA the rest of the shooters on the squad that witnessed it are just as guilty as the chrono guy for letting someone get an improper score, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 That should not have happened... must have been a local match? I personally feel that the crono is a joke, just keeps the honest people honest. Cheaters can use the crono to their advantage... just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis Lead Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 It was USPSA. And a major match at that (the mods say I cannot identify which one)! I think it was a clear case of conflict avoidance. The chrono men (there were two) and the shooter were adamant. We pulled the shooter aside after the ruling and told him he shouldn't shoot .357 Sig as it was "discriminated against" in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 discriminated against ? What the heck does that mean ? It wasnt discriminated against the guy was cheating, the chrono guys were cheating, you dont pull a guy aside that is cheating and whisper "bad boy" in his ear. You report it up the chain till somebody either does something about it or you leave in protest and let everyone know the match is crooked, hopefully it would never come to that, I dont think I have ever heard of a range master that wasnt pretty danged squared away. Just bugs me a squad of shooters knew of this and not one had the intestinal fortitude to call the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 357 SIG is not discriminated against in USPSA. Its just an oddball wildcat that meets none of the rules in a way that is satisfactory for the shooter. It can be shot in Prod, L10, Limited, and I suppose SS in minor. Bit hot to be shooting minor, but due to its 9mm bullet size, its always going to be minor. It can be shot Major in Open (did that for a while) with the loss of capacity. So its not discriminated against, it can be shot in all Divisions, it just really meets none of the needs. But in this case, the guys at the Chrono where wrong - not major. The shooter was wrong - not major. And the squad was wrong - letting it slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 WOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 discriminated against ? What the heck does that mean ? It wasnt discriminated against the guy was cheating, the chrono guys were cheating, you dont pull a guy aside that is cheating and whisper "bad boy" in his ear. You report it up the chain till somebody either does something about it or you leave in protest and let everyone know the match is crooked, hopefully it would never come to that, I dont think I have ever heard of a range master that wasnt pretty danged squared away. Just bugs me a squad of shooters knew of this and not one had the intestinal fortitude to call the RM. I get what you're saying, and I think it was a major integrity check for those in the direct decision chain of command. However, as someone on the squad, I can't see myself making too big a stink of it. I mean, my main job at a match is to shoot safely and do as well as I can. Part of doing as well as I can is focusing on my match and keeping my head on straight. Making a big stink is a distraction, and frankly it's the job of the folks at the chrono station. I would probably tell them they got the rule wrong, and if convenient I would alert the range master. However, I wouldn't skip the walkthrough on the next stage in order to track anyone down, and I wouldn't throw away my entry fee by quitting the match in protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 (edited) Why can't the match be labled here on the boards? Shouldn't this kind of thing come out?! I would want to know so I can avoid that match or RM in the future. Would also open it up for rebuttal from the RM if there were other circumstances that were not mentioned here. Perhaps the right people were NOT notified.....just sayin' Edited April 20, 2011 by Erik S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The chrono guy most likely had a radio, its not causing a stink, "Excuse me Chrono, 357 sig cant be major in Limited 10, "blah blah, Uh no you need to check rule book, blah blah, Pick up radio,,,, "we need the range master on chrono, chrono guys are scoring a 9mm as major in limited" no need to argue no stink caused report it and move on. I just typed that in under a minute. Erik S. Thats what I am getting from earlier posts, the right people wernt notified. So you cant really blame the RM or MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Why can't the match be labled here on the boards? Shouldn't this kind of thing come out?! I would want to know so I can avoid that match or RM in the future. Would also open it up for rebuttal from the RM if there were other circumstances that were not mentioned here. Perhaps the right people were NOT notified.....just sayin' Note: That is a long standing policy here on this forum...which is grounded in helping us shoot better. Along those lines, we have always found it important to not let this forum become a soapbox...we don't want people using the popularity of this forum as their means of a complaint system. And, there are ALWAYS at least two side to every story. (that is not a comment of the accuracy of this story, just a general realization). Any more on that, please ask in a PM (so we don't drift this thread. - Admin With that out of the way... These things should be addressed through the chain of command at the match..up through the appeal process and including an arbitration...and, perhaps a report to NROI, if need be. Nothing wrong with talking about them here...it's a learning opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Why can't the match be labled here on the boards? Shouldn't this kind of thing come out?! I would want to know so I can avoid that match or RM in the future. Would also open it up for rebuttal from the RM if there were other circumstances that were not mentioned here. Perhaps the right people were NOT notified.....just sayin' We don't do customer service issues here, and that includes matches. Plus, as good a story as it might be, it's still only half of the story. Forget about which match. Take the lesson of how these things should be handled, and what your options are if ever in the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis Lead Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 discriminated against ? What the heck does that mean ? It wasnt discriminated against the guy was cheating, the chrono guys were cheating, you dont pull a guy aside that is cheating and whisper "bad boy" in his ear. You report it up the chain till somebody either does something about it or you leave in protest and let everyone know the match is crooked, hopefully it would never come to that, I dont think I have ever heard of a range master that wasnt pretty danged squared away. Just bugs me a squad of shooters knew of this and not one had the intestinal fortitude to call the RM. I get what you're saying, and I think it was a major integrity check for those in the direct decision chain of command. However, as someone on the squad, I can't see myself making too big a stink of it. I mean, my main job at a match is to shoot safely and do as well as I can. Part of doing as well as I can is focusing on my match and keeping my head on straight. Making a big stink is a distraction, and frankly it's the job of the folks at the chrono station. I would probably tell them they got the rule wrong, and if convenient I would alert the range master. However, I wouldn't skip the walkthrough on the next stage in order to track anyone down, and I wouldn't throw away my entry fee by quitting the match in protest. 10 other people agreed with you. Most people won't argue hard for a ruling that will negatively affect a squad mate. I guess we Americans are a polite bunch and perhaps it seems "mean-spirited" Joe4d is correct though--we could have been more vocal. The shooter was new and was of C or D class. He knew enough to know what minor scoring would do to him and was agitated that others were arguing against the ruling. I really just posted because it was a glaring violation of a very basic (and I thought commonly understood) rule. I was flabbergasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis Lead Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 discriminated against ? What the heck does that mean ? It wasnt discriminated against the guy was cheating, the chrono guys were cheating, you dont pull a guy aside that is cheating and whisper "bad boy" in his ear. You report it up the chain till somebody either does something about it or you leave in protest and let everyone know the match is crooked, hopefully it would never come to that, I dont think I have ever heard of a range master that wasnt pretty danged squared away. Just bugs me a squad of shooters knew of this and not one had the intestinal fortitude to call the RM. I put "discriminated against" in quotes because with .357 SIG you get are shooting a round that is major by powerfactor but minor by bullet diameter. We were letting him know that he got a lucky break in a pair of chronomen not knowing the rules, but in the future he likely would not get away with this--even at a local match. I don't think anyone was cheating. I think all parties misunderstood the rules. The chrono men may have been guilty of being resistant to our (meek) challenge, but that is about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uspsa06007 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 not much information here as to where the match was, if its the same match I was the chronoman, if you had paid attention the RM was called and he was scored minor Ray Abernathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 not much information here as to where the match was, if its the same match I was the chronoman... We (Moderators) removed that match info. We try to keep the information as generic as possible...and just talk about the rule. We think it's good to discuss and clarify the rules as best as possible...while trying to keep anything personal from coming into the discussion. We are looking to talk about the rule more than getting into specifics on the staff (who work hard to put on good matches for our sport). Kyle Farris Forum Administrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I know that not all that long ago (a year ago) I would have asked what do you mean he has to score minor? I am pretty up to speed on "Most" of the rules but I had forgetten that the minimum diameter for Limited Major was .40. I assumed that most people were shooting .40's because you could easily get Major PF out of them but Major PF out of a 9 was really pushing the limits of reloading. I did not even consider someone shooting a .357 Sig because it is such an oddball cartridge. People shooting 9xXX, .38 Super or SC are for the most part shooting Open where you can push bullets to Major PF velocities. So back then I assumed if you could make Major PF then you would be scored Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I know that not all that long ago (a year ago) I would have asked what do you mean he has to score minor? I am pretty up to speed on "Most" of the rules but I had forgetten that the minimum diameter for Limited Major was .40. I assumed that most people were shooting .40's because you could easily get Major PF out of them but Major PF out of a 9 was really pushing the limits of reloading. I did not even consider someone shooting a .357 Sig because it is such an oddball cartridge. People shooting 9xXX, .38 Super or SC are for the most part shooting Open where you can push bullets to Major PF velocities. So back then I assumed if you could make Major PF then you would be scored Major. If you can make major with a 9x19mm out of a 4.5 or 5 inch 2011 open gun with holes drilled in the barrel, why would it somehow be more unsafe to make the same power factor out of a 5 or 6" barrel with no holes drilled in it on the same platform? The .40 caliber rule is there to keep Limited from being an arms race to see who can make the tiniest diameter case that makes major. I really don't want to see 26 round Limited guns in .30 carbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 If you can make major with a 9x19mm out of a 4.5 or 5 inch 2011 open gun with holes drilled in the barrel, why would it somehow be more unsafe to make the same power factor out of a 5 or 6" barrel with no holes drilled in it on the same platform? The .40 caliber rule is there to keep Limited from being an arms race to see who can make the tiniest diameter case that makes major. I really don't want to see 26 round Limited guns in .30 carbine. The ability to take 9x19 to major is a new ruling. I was thinking more of the 9x21, 9x23, or 9x25 offerings that tend to be shot as Open guns. I did not even consider the possibility of shooting 9xXX as a limited gun or the arms race issue. Learned something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 (edited) I know that not all that long ago (a year ago) I would have asked what do you mean he has to score minor? I am pretty up to speed on "Most" of the rules but I had forgetten that the minimum diameter for Limited Major was .40. I assumed that most people were shooting .40's because you could easily get Major PF out of them but Major PF out of a 9 was really pushing the limits of reloading. I did not even consider someone shooting a .357 Sig because it is such an oddball cartridge. People shooting 9xXX, .38 Super or SC are for the most part shooting Open where you can push bullets to Major PF velocities. So back then I assumed if you could make Major PF then you would be scored Major. If you can make major with a 9x19mm out of a 4.5 or 5 inch 2011 open gun with holes drilled in the barrel, why would it somehow be more unsafe to make the same power factor out of a 5 or 6" barrel with no holes drilled in it on the same platform? The .40 caliber rule is there to keep Limited from being an arms race to see who can make the tiniest diameter case that makes major. I really don't want to see 26 round Limited guns in .30 carbine. Well mostly. I tried to carve out an exception for L-10 where 10 is 10, but it was viewed as a slippery slope, so no go. Edited April 24, 2011 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I really don't want to see 26 round Limited guns in .30 carbine. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I really don't want to see 26 round Limited guns in .30 carbine. Why not? OMG that would be LOUD!!! How do you triple plug.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markcic Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I really don't want to see 26 round Limited guns in .30 carbine. Why not? OMG that would be LOUD!!! How do you triple plug.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now