OH MAN...BUBBLE BURST TODAY !

[GONZO!!!]

Okay Gang...

So, on another thread I was ranting about how in the old days of USPSA/IPSC thre were only two divisions. Semi-auto and revolver. You shot with whatever you brought. NO restrictions on magwells, holsters, magazine capacity, yadda yadda...

So I spent some time today watching a lot of different courses of fire on youtube. One club had several of their courses of fire and several shooters from their club shooting those COF. There was an extremely talented young lady shooting but I swear to you, I thought she was just spraying and praying. So I went back and slowly counted each target giving the benefit of the doubt that all paper got two shots and all steel one shot.

every course of fire had 30+ minimum rounds! One stage was a 40 round (at least thats what I am counting)!

Single stacks, limited 10, etc., truly do not stand a chance. How many mags do we need to shoot s simple sport? YOu mean I cant use a simploe add-on mag well for a single stack match? Seriosuly?

I know that USPSA says that you dont need to have a $3,000 race gun to compete...but in reality, yes you do. Plain and simple. Well, I guess you don't if you're TGO, or Enos, Barnhart, Koenig, Fowler, McCormick, Plaxco, etc.

Back in the older days IF we had a course of fire which we thought was a little high (up to 20 rounds) we made sure that the it was as fair as possible. We institued at least one mandatory mag change. No section of targets within the entire course of fire ever had more than an 8 round count. What we didnt want is the first part of a stage to exceed the number of rounds and then a shooter having to reload half way through the first few targets before even going on the move to the next section. IN these matches, I saw a non-race gun shooter change magazines so many times. Once for each section of targets...plus he changed during the move so he got to the next high count section with a full magazine. ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS!

regardless of the plethora of divisions (open, production, limited, limited-10, single stack, etc) everything about USPSA/IPSC screams $3000 super spray and pray open race gun competition.

You want match pressure? Shoot a modified El Presidente but onnly "A" zones count. So if all the competitors can hit the "A", then it becomes a matter of speed. Can't drop a shot and work half a second faster to win...everyone hits an A or you go home...instill the old 175 power factor so that the $3000 Super race guns have to shoot a decent load. This helps to even the playing field.

Anyway..I just had to rant...I just couldn't believe what I was seeing...B.E., whats your take on this?

GONZO!!!

[Pro2AInPA]

[bbbean]

I had to check the date to be sure this wasn't a post from 4/1.

[Ronnie j]

Just damn

[beltjones]

I'm not really sure what your point is...

[BayouSlide]

If anyone's interested I have a well-used Glock 34 Production gun that I'd be willing to part with for $2999.99...buy it today and I'll throw in 26 mags for free

Curtis

[blaster113]

That club on Youtube must have tons of time to set up long field courses. My guess is that most clubs nowadays run a mixture of short, med. and long field courses in a club match

[hiker88]

If anyone's interested I have a well-used Glock 34 Production gun that I'd be willing to part with for $2999.99...buy it today and I'll throw in 26 mags for free

Curtis

I'm interested in the mags if the would be buyer don't want to take them all :roflol:

[s_gorilla45]

So what you're saying is that we should shoot less bullets?

ETA: I'm one of those limited shooters with 20 round mags. I routinely get beat by prodution and single stack shooters. Ya don't hear me complaining about it either!

Edited April 4, 2011 by s_gorilla45

[carlosa]

you sure you weren't looking at something like the NRG-300 a special once a year match at norco where all courses of fire are around 50 shots each (*6 stages = nrg300)?

this types of matches are usually once a year novelties and don't really represent the reality of our usual matches...

cheers,

Los.

[Torogi]

Im not BE but im gonna say this, THOSE were the days

[JFlowers]

Gonzo,

Not really sure where you were heading, but rather than make smarmy comments, I thought I would try to answer you with real answers.

You are correct that long field courses have become the norm, usually 28-32 rounds with 32 rounds being the max allowed by the rules. But remember, a competitor is only competing within his/her division. So the fact that an Open shooter does not have to make a mag change and a Single Stack shooter has to make 4 is totally irrelevant since they are not competing against each other. As you stated from the old days, the rules still limit no more than 8 rounds from any location. And yes, that means L10, SS, Prod, and Revo are reloading anytime they are not shooting.

You can add a magwell to a Single Stack as long as it meets the established rules.

More and more, I see Single Stack and Production as the more popular divisions, at least at the club level. Though it tends to change club to club. So you don't need a $3000 gun to compete. In fact, locally, most of our new shooters are IDPA crossovers who grab two more mags and shoot Production.

Maybe rather than watching YOUTUBE and only seeing a limited slice of whats going on, get out and watch a match in person.

[GrumpyOne]

Gonzo,

Not really sure where you were heading, but rather than make smarmy comments, I thought I would try to answer you with real answers.

You are correct that long field courses have become the norm, usually 28-32 rounds with 32 rounds being the max allowed by the rules. But remember, a competitor is only competing within his/her division. So the fact that an Open shooter does not have to make a mag change and a Single Stack shooter has to make 4 is totally irrelevant since they are not competing against each other. As you stated from the old days, the rules still limit no more than 8 rounds from any location. And yes, that means L10, SS, Prod, and Revo are reloading anytime they are not shooting.

You can add a magwell to a Single Stack as long as it meets the established rules.

More and more, I see Single Stack and Production as the more popular divisions, at least at the club level. Though it tends to change club to club. So you don't need a $3000 gun to compete. In fact, locally, most of our new shooters are IDPA crossovers who grab two more mags and shoot Production.

Maybe rather than watching YOUTUBE and only seeing a limited slice of whats going on, get out and watch a match in person.

Well said!

[Glshooter]

But remember, a competitor is only competing within his/her division. So the fact that an Open shooter does not have to make a mag change and a Single Stack shooter has to make 4 is totally irrelevant since they are not competing against each other.

this is the important part. Most people in production are running a $500-$700 Glock, M&P, CZ, Sig, etc.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Glshooter

[CZinSC]

Gonzo,

Not really sure where you were heading, but rather than make smarmy comments, I thought I would try to answer you with real answers.

You are correct that long field courses have become the norm, usually 28-32 rounds with 32 rounds being the max allowed by the rules. But remember, a competitor is only competing within his/her division. So the fact that an Open shooter does not have to make a mag change and a Single Stack shooter has to make 4 is totally irrelevant since they are not competing against each other. As you stated from the old days, the rules still limit no more than 8 rounds from any location. And yes, that means L10, SS, Prod, and Revo are reloading anytime they are not shooting.

You can add a magwell to a Single Stack as long as it meets the established rules.

More and more, I see Single Stack and Production as the more popular divisions, at least at the club level. Though it tends to change club to club. So you don't need a $3000 gun to compete. In fact, locally, most of our new shooters are IDPA crossovers who grab two more mags and shoot Production.

Maybe rather than watching YOUTUBE and only seeing a limited slice of whats going on, get out and watch a match in person.

I agree as well, good points, well said.

I'll add my two cents. I'm a Production shooter. I feel cheated when the COF is only 17-18 rounds. I came to shoot. I LOVE 32 round stages. Yes, I have to change mags 3-5 times. But I like that. For one stage at the FL Open this year, I had 1 mag in the gun, 4 on the belt, and one in the back pocket..just in case. I have no problem with that.

I also shot the US IPSC National match in Columbia, SC last year. It was good match run by a great Gun Club (MCRC), but I didn't like the low round counts. As you may know, IPSC matches have certain amount of short, medium, and long courses. There are more short and medium than long. After shooting that match, I much prefer the longer COF's.

[chefcs5]

man I dont have an open gun only lim, prod, and SS and Id be pissed if all the stages had 20 rounds or less. I love 14 stage matches with all 26 +round counts!!!! woot. I dont care if I have to reload 11 times!! bring it on

[Coach]

Good shooters can win and the division does not really matter. A great run with a Production gun and beat a good run with an Open gun. It happens quite a bit. I was not around in the old days, and from what I have read and heard I think things have gotten better. I don't find myself saying I wish that it was that way now.

[JakeMartens]

Okay Gang...

So, on another thread I was ranting about how in the old days of USPSA/IPSC thre were only two divisions. Semi-auto and revolver. You shot with whatever you brought. NO restrictions on magwells, holsters, magazine capacity, yadda yadda...

So I spent some time today watching a lot of different courses of fire on youtube. One club had several of their courses of fire and several shooters from their club shooting those COF. There was an extremely talented young lady shooting but I swear to you, I thought she was just spraying and praying. So I went back and slowly counted each target giving the benefit of the doubt that all paper got two shots and all steel one shot.

every course of fire had 30+ minimum rounds! One stage was a 40 round (at least thats what I am counting)!

Single stacks, limited 10, etc., truly do not stand a chance. How many mags do we need to shoot s simple sport? YOu mean I cant use a simploe add-on mag well for a single stack match? Seriosuly?

I know that USPSA says that you dont need to have a $3,000 race gun to compete...but in reality, yes you do. Plain and simple. Well, I guess you don't if you're TGO, or Enos, Barnhart, Koenig, Fowler, McCormick, Plaxco, etc.

Back in the older days IF we had a course of fire which we thought was a little high (up to 20 rounds) we made sure that the it was as fair as possible. We institued at least one mandatory mag change. No section of targets within the entire course of fire ever had more than an 8 round count. What we didnt want is the first part of a stage to exceed the number of rounds and then a shooter having to reload half way through the first few targets before even going on the move to the next section. IN these matches, I saw a non-race gun shooter change magazines so many times. Once for each section of targets...plus he changed during the move so he got to the next high count section with a full magazine. ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS!

regardless of the plethora of divisions (open, production, limited, limited-10, single stack, etc) everything about USPSA/IPSC screams $3000 super spray and pray open race gun competition.

You want match pressure? Shoot a modified El Presidente but onnly "A" zones count. So if all the competitors can hit the "A", then it becomes a matter of speed. Can't drop a shot and work half a second faster to win...everyone hits an A or you go home...instill the old 175 power factor so that the $3000 Super race guns have to shoot a decent load. This helps to even the playing field.

Anyway..I just had to rant...I just couldn't believe what I was seeing...B.E., whats your take on this?

GONZO!!!

In Single Stack you can do alot of basic things to a 1911 to make it competitive and not break the bank

really a beavertail, and magwell, decent sights are wll you need. One of the more popular guns right now is the STI Spartan you can get for under $700, or the STI Trojan for right at a $1000

But every manufacturer has 1911's that are around the $700 mark that are ready to go.

You can get into production for right around $700 and that is with mags, mag pouches, holster and new gun, alot cheaper if you want to go used gun.

[herky]

Good shooters can win and the division does not really matter. A great run with a Production gun and beat a good run with an Open gun. It happens quite a bit. I was not around in the old days, and from what I have read and heard I think things have gotten better. I don't find myself saying I wish that it was that way now.

I do remember the "old days", lots of boxes, shoot four targets here, then four targets there, and I agree that things have gotten better. I don't find myself saying I wish that it was that way now either. COFs are much more fun now. IMHO

[Coach]

Good shooters can win and the division does not really matter. A great run with a Production gun and beat a good run with an Open gun. It happens quite a bit. I was not around in the old days, and from what I have read and heard I think things have gotten better. I don't find myself saying I wish that it was that way now.

I do remember the "old days", lots of boxes, shoot four targets here, then four targets there, and I agree that things have gotten better. I don't find myself saying I wish that it was that way now either. COFs are much more fun now. IMHO

I don't find box to box fun either.

[JakeMartens]

I do know that I couldn't climb a wall or crawl through a tunnel

I am taking the procedural

[GONZO!!!]

Yeah...I'm just an old timer venting...HOWEVER..I went back and found the one youtube club whose videos I was watching..seems like this club either doesnt know the rules or perhaps is just shooting a "local rules" thing because the count at some of the target groupings was above the rules of 8 rounds per location. SO it could have been they were just doing their thing.

However let us remember that the Principles of USPSA also state:

1) Courses of fire should follow a practical rationale. (last time the "practical rationale" of high ammo count happened to me I was a U.S. Army Ranger and we were in Central America. But I was shooting an M16 at the time...'nuff said)

2) Practical competition is diverse, never permitting unrealistic specialization of either technique or equipment. (perhaps I am harking to much on the word "practical" here.

So I pose the questions...

When did uber-capacity take over in USPSA, and so much so that they felt the need to create several other divisions in order to balance out the fairness?

Did high count courses of fire come first, or did the introduction of Uber-capacity pistols create the desire for higher count courses of fire? (which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

You know guys, perhaps I am harping too much on the word "practical" here. I admit that.

[atbarr]

I do know that I couldn't climb a wall or crawl through a tunnel

I am taking the procedural

I understand completely!

A.T.

[Vlad]

The skills are practical, the positions we shoot from are practical, some of the guns we shoot are practical, the speed is practical, the accuracy requirement is practical, etc.

The round count is fun, because this is what we do on the weekend, not the the invasion of Panama. You might be ok with paying your money, and helping at the match (you will help, right?) and standing in the sun waiting for the other 70 shooters to get your turn ... only to shoot 8-10 rounds, but me, I'd like to have some fun while I'm out there. Certainly if you are confronted by 18 armed opponents I recommend you run the other way and call for an air strike instead of charging with a handgun, but this ain't snake eater school, its a friking hobby.

In other news, where I live Open is nearly dead, or at least it feels that way despite of handful of very talented open shooters. The Fun times are in Production and Limited as far as I can tell, and those guns are quite practical and they don't cost a lot. You can make yourself a decent limited Glock for $800 or so, which is what you used to pay a gunsmith to install real sights and polish the crap out of a factory Colt in the "good old days". And you still only had 7 rounds or 8 if you felt adventurous with your magazines. No thank you, round capacity has a very good purpose, it wasn't solely invented for the benefit for competition shooters. Neither was the .38 Super for that matter.

[JFlowers]

Gonzo,

This one I will have to agree with you, but only to a point. What is practical? Practical equipment? Practical COF? Practical for the street?

Shooting skills are practical regardless. The fact that the head and hands know how to bring a handgun into use or that the eyes and hands can make the shot are skills that are taught and enforced by shooting... period.

Each division addresses practical in a different way. Production addresses practical by testing the DA/SA, DAO, SafeAction pistols that are popular today in a crucible that weans out the weak. Single Stack does the same with the resurgent 1911 platform. Limited 10, well sometimes you have to do unpractical things due to silly laws. Limited and Open address practical by taking the most outrageous ideas and testing in that crucible. The ideas either survive or die. Look at the red dot scopes. Once a strange addition to a pistol in competition and now a standard on the rifles of the US Military. High-capacity magazines are the same. Technology tested and slow migrating outwards. Then you have the trend to shorty short open guns that came in the mid-90s and seems to have faded. Maybe because that tech as not been found to survive in the crucible. Time will tell. Uber-capacity? That trend has migrated out to become 60 and 100 round magazines for the M16 for our troops. That's not to say that USPSA is the fount of all great new toys.

High count stages have come from the wants of the shooting community. We don't want to drive and hour, pay $20, and shoot 50 rounds total. Shooting sports that have not expanded to meet that want have fallen by the wayside. But USPSA has said enough and created a 32 round cap. And yes, some local clubs slide past that cap on occasion.